• Welcome to Hair loss Experiences hair loss forum.

    Free impartial hair loss advice, hair transplant advice, hair loss medications and hair loss news.
    You can contact us directly at [email protected] if you experience any problems.

SMP

C

clarvison

Valued member
Hi Everyone!I am new to the forum. I have been researching the scalp micropigmention process for about a year now. Unfortunately, I still haven't made up my mind about whether or not to move forward to have the procedure.
For those of you who've had the procedure, tell me about your experience. Both the GOOD and the BAD. So far, I've been most impressed with the customer service of Good Look Ink and Vinci Hair Clinic. They have both been very accommodating in answering my questions and giving me examples of recent procedures.
I would greatly appreciate hearing from those of you whom have had experience with either of those companies as well as those who've had the SMP procedure done at all. Right now I just need some honest feedback from real clients in order to make the most informed decision I can make about the SMP procedure.Thanks a lot!
 
Last edited:
Bigmac

Bigmac

Administrator
Staff member
I've not had Smp but there are members in this section who have. You should ask them on their threads.
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Clarvision I would suggest not tattooing your head and I have several reasons listed on another thread. What I would suggest to you if you feel it is something you absolutely must do would to bring at least 2 people that love and care for you such as a family member on the consultations. Let them ask questions and make observations. Then strongly consider their feedback.

You might also consider bringing up the topic in casual conversation. Tell someone hey I saw this guy that had dots tattooed on his head and it actually looked like hair €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦have you seen this and what do you think about someone doing something like that?
 
H

hairhair98

Valued member
Hi clar. I've had SMP and there are pros and cons to it... here are a few off the top of my head. Some pro's are that it looks like you have a shaved head of hair, gives a frame to your face, and is reversible (unlike transplants). Some cons are that in certain lighting conditions the treatment can be hard to see, it requires most people to shave their head all the way down daily or every other day, and is overpriced compared to tattoos in general.

There are good and bad clinics, just like with any product... so make sure to do a ton of research into the clinics you are interested in. SMP isn't for everyone, and as with any cosmetic procedure there is an element of risk involved no matter how good the clinic is, but if you stick to established, well reviewed clinics, you should be ok.

GLI is not a clinic i personally have a lot of faith in -- due in part to several bad reviews i have read, as well as difficulty in finding client reviews other than the ones that they choose to feature on their website. Obviously they only feature positive reviews, and i am more interested in reading the experiences of people who had problems. They have several videos, and the results look very good on their videos... but again, no company operates at 100% perfection, and if i cant gauge how often problems occur, and how the company handles it, i would never commit to something like this.

I dont know a lot about Vinci, but i believe they have a pretty good reputation in the industry. There is a rep who posts stuff here in the forum, and the results look very good. However, as with GLI, there is no forum where complaints can be discussed openly, so proceed with caution.

There aren't a lot of people on this forum who have had SMP, so i would suggest going to the HIS Hair Clinic's forum where you can read hundreds (if not thousands) of detailed testimonials from people that have had the procedure. HIS allows clients that have had poor experiences to discuss their situation, so you can get an idea of how often things go wrong and how the company responds to it. HIS is considered one of the top SMP companies in the world.

Another forum you should check out is that of Skalp Clinic. It's not as active as the HIS forum, but there is lots of feedback there. I'm not familiar with the clinic, but it originally was started by people that had been trained by HIS, so the quality of their work should be good. I havent spent much time on the forum, so i dont know if they allow negative experiences to be discussed... if all you see is positive discussion, be cautious.

One final note, dont pay much attention to what is in topcat's thread he referenced earlier. Toppcat is heavily biased against SMP and has not had the procedure, nor has he spent much time researching the technique/feedback from reputable clinics. His thread is full of fear mongering and his own personal opinions, which are mostly based on results from bad clinics. Nearly all of his opinions about SMP are directly contradicted by the feedback from hundreds of clients on the HIS forums. It's better to get feedback from people that have been through the process, than from someone who isn't very informed on the subject.

For instance, you can read dozens of accounts of people doing what he advised you to do earlier... and it's overwhelmingly (if not entirely) positive. I brought a family member to my consultation, where we also saw 3 people with the treatment, and they were 100% for it.

That's not me saying that you should get it done, that's just my experience. Do your research and see it in person as much as you can, and then decide if you think it's right for you.
 
C

clarvison

Valued member
Thank you all for your feedback. I appreciate that each of you took the time to respond. I realize that there is a bit of "cloak and dagger" involved with this procedure. Most companies do not have a forum that candidates and clients can openly discuss the procedure. HIS Hair looks like there's a forum that's policed by a moderator. I wish that each SMP provider had a forum so it wasn't so difficult to get a true feel for the company and the procedure. It makes it difficult for those of us who are not close to any clinics. Also, like you said HisHair, you're only seeing the "best" results from providers and I am corresponding from their selected parties. Are they authentic?
I've done a lot of research via the web, corresponding emails and phone calls. However, I have not, to my knowledge, seen the actual procedure in person. That may be my next step.
Thanks again. I especially appreciate your response hishair. Very honest and some great advice and information.
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Hairhair I see Damien your forum leader has moved on to another company while also running his own website and he seems to be careful and politically correct when explaining which is always nice. I find watching the hairloss industry in general to be fascinating.

I know this is all easy money but I can €™t imagine doing it and I also understand it is only a small segment of the population that thinks in such a way, less than 10% in which taking advantage of people is normal. Hopefully together we can make others aware that the answer to solving hairloss is very limited and tattooing one's head does not fall under the heading of solving in my opinion.............in fact it is just the opposite as many procedures of the past. It opens up a new can of worms for those considering it to face years down the road when those that have made their fortunes have moved on.
Many of those selling their wares do not think like you...............it's an important point to understand.


One of the worst things a man can do in my opinion is to show insecurity. It is the absolute opposite of confidence. So don't let your momentary insecurity becomes something for all to see when it was only a moment in time. Nothing screams insecurity more than a tattooed head or a poorly planned ht in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
H

hairhair98

Valued member
topccat29 wrote:
Nothing screams insecurity more than a tattooed head or a poorly planned ht in my opinion.
This is an example of what's wrong with what you say... you make a distinction between good and bad hair transplants, but you lump all SMP -- good and bad -- into one category. By doing so, you turn people off to a treatment that, whether you like it or not, has proven successful for those suffering from hair loss issues.

It's perfectly fine if you think SMP doesn't look good to you... but when you say things like 'you wont get girls' or 'people are going to make fun of you, like if you peed your pants' you are saying things that simply aren't true.

I've read countless threads where guys said they pick up more girls with SMP than when they were bald. I remember one person in particular where he expressed worries about attracting girls early on in his SMP treatment. Fast forward 3.5 years after his treatment and he is married to a beautiful woman with a new baby.

From this, to this, to this.

Source

I've said before that i believe you have good intentions (although that's impossible for me to really know, especially since you have said that you are writing a book about this subject), but i dont understand why in an industry strife with deception and BS 'miracle cures', that you would take such a hard stance against one of the few hair loss remedies that actually works.

For you to continue to rail against SMP using those talking points, when there is a mountain of easily accessible evidence that contradicts what you say, it shows you either aren't doing research, are willfully ignorant, or are intentionally spreading misinformation.



 
Last edited:
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Hairhair we disagree. I honestly feel if a young man were to choose this route he would get stares and being that this whole hair issue is an issue of insecurity I think that it could be so devastating, I shudder to think what someone would do should they feel that devastation. Playing with a loaded gun in my opinion and some of those accounts can be seen on your own forum.

Guys that are using it as a concealer I would agree are taking much less risk as it can be covered with hair and I still would not advise as concealer is superior to it.

Regardless of any short term result it is absolutely not a long term solution and I have absolutely no doubt as the physiology of human skin will not allow it and that is not debateable. There will be a long term price to pay and one day the customer will look into the mirror and ask themselves what have I done to myself. With temporary tattoos how long and how many sessions before the lymph nodes are overwhelmed. Kind of like too much sugar in the system eventually the pancreas says I give up.

Providing another point of view is just something for others to think about now and not later when it's too late. They don €™t have to listen to what I have to say just consider it. If what I say does not make sense than that works to your advantage.


Those considering this procedure should make the following observations. Look at the skin of those around a bit more closely. Compare the skin of the 20-30 year old to that of a 40-50 year old and then to those that are even older. There will be a price to pay for a foolish decision made with limited information.................don't do it to yourself.






 
H

hairhair98

Valued member
topccat29 wrote:
I honestly feel if a young man were to choose this route he would get stares
There is a mountain of easily accessible evidence that disproves that.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Willful_ignorance


Providing another point of view is just something for others to think about now and not later when it's too late.
You aren't providing another point of view, you are lying to vulnerable people about a procedure you have no experience with.

At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if you are doing this on purpose to generate interest for your supposed book.


 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Sorry hairhair my goal here is to simply get guys to think outside the cult like atmosphere a forum can often become. Sure I could go along with all of this and maybe even make some money if I wanted to but I €™m not looking for friends or that kind of money, I €™m looking to do the right thing.

To say that stares are not possible is not being completely truthful on your part. The quote below is from your own forum among many more that I have read there and in my opinion no young man should have to go through that shame because he simply lacked information and a voice of reason.

"After 4 months, I said 'f*ck it, if it really doesn't look bad then nobody will say anything' I took my hat off in a well lit room for the first time in that long, within 20 seconds someone caught a glimpse of my head and said 'hahaha what the f*ck have you done to your head!' Well that settled it, my fears were most certainly true."
 
H

hairhair98

Valued member
topccat29 wrote:
Sure I could go along with all of this and maybe even make some money if I wanted to but I €™m not looking for friends or that kind of money, I €™m looking to do the right thing.
I dont care whether you 'go along with it' or not, or whether you think it looks good or bad. What i care about is how you are misrepresenting the treatment at best, lying at worst, when you dole out your 'advice'.

You have virtually no substantive experience with this treatment... i dont think you have ever even seen it in person.

To say that stares are not possible is not being completely truthful on your part.
I literally just got through telling this guy that there is a risk involved no matter how good the treatment is.

Do you think the best hair transplant surgeon, and the best SMP clinic, and the best boob job doctors in the world have 100% success, and 100% satisfied customers?

Of course they dont.

For some reason, however, you give a pass to the hair transplant industry in regards to this, but incessantly highlight it to discredit the SMP industry.

Read the link i provided about willful ignorance, especially the part about confirmation bias... because it is exactly what you do. You cherry pick cases where a problem has occurred, and ignore the overwhelming number of cases that are successes... then you lump all the good and bad cases into one category and deem the treatment unviable even if performed at reputable clinics.

Thankfully, as shown by tkster95 in your thread, most people can see through your speculative, uninformed, cherry picking, biased opinion, as long as they read enough of your posts.

 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Yes I think we can both agree, anything that is a viable long term solution that does not put the patient at risk now or in the future would be the only logical option.

Unfortunately I do not consider the hair dot tattoo a viable long term solution and we can also include a great deal of the ht work out there that is poorly planned for the long term benefit of the patient and better suited for the quick profit of a clinic.

I truly believe in the future we will look back on this episode of the hair loss industry (HDT) and ask ourselves what were this guys thinking, why were these guys doing this to themselves and the answer will be found in those that helped encourage it for they had no shame.
 
Last edited:
M

MarkF86

Valued member
Hi,

New to the forum but thought I would help...

I had MSP done at Vinci last year and am delighted with my results. As you mentioned, the customer service is 2nd to none. What struck me to deal was the way they actively swerve from being a sales pitch, tattoo parlour or beautician. I went to other companies first and felt as if they just wanted my money.

Not sure how to upload multiple photos so here's before...
 
M

MarkF86

Valued member
Hi,

New to the forum but thought I would help...

I had MSP done at Vinci last year and am delighted with my results. As you mentioned, the customer service is 2nd to none. What struck me to deal was the way they actively swerve from being a sales pitch, tattoo parlour or beautician. I went to other companies first and felt as if they just wanted my money.

Not sure how to upload multiple photos so here's before...
 

Attachments

  • IMG_6831.JPG
    IMG_6831.JPG
    13.9 KB · Views: 605
M

MarkF86

Valued member
... and that's directly after the treatment. My skin is quite sensitive so went red but it died down after a day or 2 then was completely gone by day 3.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1469.jpg
    IMG_1469.jpg
    25.2 KB · Views: 713
Last edited:
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Mark good to hear that you are happy. From my own observations and experiences over the years in the world of hair loss the best advice I could recommend to anyone would be to consider a reasonable amount of fue that is placed for the long term and have realistic expectations. If one does not have realistic expectations than absolutely do not have a hair transplant. The number of fue of course going to very but overall I believe that is the safest course of action. Everything else in my opinion is filled with unnecessary risks for something that is such a small part of the whole person.

If my opinion helps someone make a better decision than good for them if not that €™s okay too.

Mark may I ask if your lymph nodes were swollen after the procedure as this seems to be common for some customers and if so does it concern you? All that ink needs to go through the lymph system as it disappears. Studies have shown that tattoo ink that migrates from it €™s original point of injection not only has to be removed by the lymph system but builds up in the nodes themselves. The lymph system protects the body from outside invaders so it €™s important that it is not overwhelmed with ink.
 
Last edited:
M

MarkF86

Valued member
Hi Topcat, I did consider FUE but as it's success rates vary, I thought I would go for something cheaper and more future proof. My donor area isn't the best. MSP leaves me with the option to get further treatment like FUE though so I'm happy overall.
I don't really see there being any more risks with MSP than there are with the likes of FUE. Indeed, FUE is a surgery and any surgery no matter how big or small can be a risk.

I think it's a personal choice and since I really like the buzz-cut look, it's been perfect for me.
With regards to swelling or anything - the only thing I had was the redness. I have a couple of friends who have had MSP with Vinci as well and none of them have had any problems either.

Just to add for the OP, I think the likes of HIS give a jarhead look at the front - the Jamie Foxx hairline which TBH only those of certain ethnicity can pull off. The technicians at Vinci actively encouraged me to get my hairline broken up.
 
Last edited:
Prohairclinic

Prohairclinic

Prohairclinic FUE and SMP
topccat29 wrote:
Mark good to hear that you are happy. From my own observations and experiences over the years in the world of hair loss the best advice I could recommend to anyone would be to consider a reasonable amount of fue that is placed for the long term and have realistic expectations. If one does not have realistic expectations than absolutely do not have a hair transplant. The number of fue of course going to very but overall I believe that is the safest course of action. Everything else in my opinion is filled with unnecessary risks for something that is such a small part of the whole person.

If my opinion helps someone make a better decision than good for them if not that €™s okay too.

Mark may I ask if your lymph nodes were swollen after the procedure as this seems to be common for some customers and if so does it concern you? All that ink needs to go through the lymph system as it disappears. Studies have shown that tattoo ink that migrates from it €™s original point of injection not only has to be removed by the lymph system but builds up in the nodes themselves. The lymph system protects the body from outside invaders so it €™s important that it is not overwhelmed with ink.
Hi Topcat, can you point out those studies, I would be interested to read.
As for swollen Lymph nodes I can assure you that not a single one of our clients has reported this issue.
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Mark I don't think it's worth the risk long term and patients should at least be given the chance to consider those thoughts. Happy to hear you are pleased.
Bart, logic would tell me ink that is trapped in the lower dermis is safer not that I would make that choice either but these fast disappearing inks have to go somewhere and to think people would go for repeated sessions all sounds like a cancer time bomb. History shows us that Cancer time bombs take 10+ years to explode. Maybe I am just too cautious but I don't believe that to be the case here.



Tattoo pigment in an axillary lymph node simulating metastatic malignant melanomaCM Jack,1 A Adwani,
corrauth.gif
1 and H Krishnan1Author information –º Article notes –º Copyright and License information –ºThis article has been cited by other articles in PMC.Go to:AbstractWe report a case of axillary lymphadenopathy thirty years after a decorative tattoo clinically mimicking metastatic melanoma. The importance of relying on histological confirmation of metastatic disease before altering extent of surgery is discussed. The importance of recording presence of decorative tattoos is stressed.
Keywords: Tattoo Pigment, Lymphadenopathy, Malignant MelanomaGo to:BackgroundThe presence of lymphadenopathy requires further investigation. Often its presence is explained by a simple viral illness or trauma. Rarer causes are often made apparent by thorough history taking and examination. The need for a biopsy is controversial. We report a case where the answer may have been staring us in the face if we knew where to look. The fact that a tattoo causes lymphadenopathy is well known in the acute phase. This is thought to be due to local inflammation from the initial insult. However, to our knowledge there have been no reports of a palpable node after time delay this long.
Go to:Case reportA 54 year old man presented with a lump in the right axilla of six months duration. The lump was non tender and had not changed in size. He complained of weight loss of 5 kg over the past two months. He denied foreign travel, night sweats, recent injury, cough, or the presence of any other lumps. His past medical history was unremarkable. There was no family history of breast or bowel cancer. The lump was clinically palpable and measured 3 cm. It was firm, non tender, not attached to the skin or deep tissues and was consistent with a clinical diagnosis of axillary lymphadenopathy. The left axilla and supraclavicular fossae were normal. There was no skin lesion in the drainage area of the axilla. Examination of the breasts, chest and abdomen were unremarkable. Haematology, Biochemistry and Chest X-rays were normal. Ultrasound confirmed a benign appearing lymph node with a fatty centre. In view of the size and longstanding nature of the lymph node, an excision biopsy was performed. At surgery the node was firm, suspicious and black in colour.
On histology, the specimen of the lymph node with attached fatty tissue measured 3 × 2 × 0.8 cms. Black discolouration was present on the cut surface.
Microscopic examination of the routine haematoxylin and eosin sections of the lymph node showed preservation of architecture with follicular hyperplasia. Black carbon like pigment was seen lying within the macrophages and dispersed outside them in the sinuses. There was associated fibrosis. Multiple sections did not reveal any evidence of metastatic malignant melanoma.
Immunohistochemical staining for S 100 protein and histochemical stain (Masson's Fontana) was done to further exclude that possibility.
Retrospectively we noted the 30-year old tattoo that the patient had on his right arm.
Go to:ConclusionLymphadenopathy refers to nodes that are abnormal in size, consistency or number [1]. There are various classifications of lymphadenopathy, but a simple and clinically useful system is to classify lymphadenopathy as "generalized" if lymph nodes are enlarged in two or more non-contiguous areas or "localized" if only one area is involved. Localised lymphadenopathy of the axilla is suggestive of infections, Cat-scratch disease, Lymphoma, Breast cancer, Silicone implants, Brucellosis and Melanoma. The presence or otherwise of a tattoo may not be noted in history taking for lymphadenopathy [2]. Little information exists to suggest that a specific diagnosis can be based on node size. However, in one series of 213 adults with unexplained lymphadenopathy, no patient with a lymph node smaller than 1 cm2 had cancer, while cancer was present in 8 percent of those with nodes from 1 cm2 to 2.25 cm2 in size, and in 38 percent of those with nodes larger than 2.25 cm2 [3]. In children, lymph nodes larger than 2 cm in diameter (along with an abnormal chest radiograph and the absence of ear, nose and throat symptoms) were predictive of granulomatous diseases (i.e. tuberculosis, cat-scratch disease or sarcoidosis) or cancer (predominantly lymphomas) [4].
The fact that a tattoo causes lymphadenopathy is well known in the acute phase due to local inflammation and probably resolves spontaneously. The natural history of tattoo is well documented. The tattoo ink particles may range from 2 €“400 nm and are most commonly 40 nm. They are initially found within large phagosomes in the cytoplasm of keratinocytes, phagocytic cells including fibroblasts, macrophages and mast cells. The skin layers initially appear homogenised but at one month, the basement membrane is reforming and aggregates are present within basal cells. At 2 €“3 months and at 40 years, ink particles are only found in dermal fibroblasts surrounded by a network of connective tissue that entraps and immobilises the cell. The tattoo may appear blurred with time due to ink movement into the deep dermis. Eventually the tattoo ink appears in the regional lymph nodes.
This is thought to be due to local inflammation from the initial insult. However, to our knowledge there have been no reports of a palpable node after time delay this long. The dye used in skin tattooing is carbon based.
The movement of dye through the lymph channels forms the basis of sentinel node biopsy. Complications of lymph node biopsy are reported as scaring, blood loss, infection and more rarely nerve damage and lymphoedema. The question remains whether it was necessary to biopsy this lymph node or was the presence of the tattoo enough to give reason for the enlarged node. In this instance the co factor of the weight loss meant that leaving the node would not be reasonable.
Anderson [5] and Moehrle [6] reported that tattoo pigments in Lymph nodes can mimic metastatic malignant melanoma, but do not comment on age of the decorative tattoo. Such pigmentation in patients with malignant melanoma can look metastatic and may prompt the surgeon to proceed to complete nodal dissection. Nodal dissection should be delayed till conclusive histological diagnosis is made [7].
Migration of the carbon pigment through the lymphatics is usually seen in the hilar lymph nodes draining the lungs. The main differential diagnosis in our case would be metastatic malignant melanoma. This was excluded by the careful examination of the H&E sections for tumour cells (Figure €‹(Figure1,1, €‹,2)2) and employing special stains. Immunohistochemical staining for S 100 protein is a very sensitive marker for melanoma cells and a Masson's Fontana stain helps to differentiate melanin pigment from carbon pigment.
Figure 1Lymph node with preserved architecture and the pigment. H&E × 100 Figure 2The dark granular carbon pigment located in the sinuses. H&E × 400Sentinel lymph node biopsy is becoming more common in Melanoma and Breast cancer. History taking and examination should include presence, site, age and colour of decorative tattoos especially in the drainage areas to the axilla. History of removal of tattoos is also important as nodes may persist for several years. Raising awareness of this problem among surgeons and pathologists treating malignant melanoma is important. Investigation of axillary Lymphadenopathy should include tattoos in the drainage areas as a probable cause.
Go to:AcknowledgementsThe authors would like to thanks Mr SR Ebbs (Consultant Surgeon) for his support and guidance.
Go to:References
  • Goroll AH, May LA, Mulley AG., Jr . Primary care medicine: office evaluation and management of the adult patient. 2. Philadelphia: Lippincott; 1987.Ferrer R. Lymphadenopathy: Differential Diagnosis and Evaluation. American Family Physician.October 15 1998. [PubMed]Pangalis GA, Vassilakopoulos TP, Boussiotis VA, Fessas P. Clinical approach to Lymphadenopathy. Semin Oncol. 1993;20:570 €“82. [PubMed]Slap GB, Brooks JS, Schwartz JS. When to perform biopsies of enlarged peripheral lymph nodes in young patients. JAMA. 1984;252:1321 €“6. doi: 10.1001/jama.252.10.1321. [PubMed][Cross Ref]Anderson LL, Cardone JS, McCollough ML, Grabski WJ. Tattoo pigment mimicking malignant melanoma. Dermatological Surgery. 1996;22:92 €“4. doi: 10.1016/1076-0512(95)00336-3.[PubMed] [Cross Ref]Moehrle M, Blaheta HJ, Ruck P. Tattoo pigment mimics positive sentinel lymph node in melanoma. Dermatology. 2001;203:342 €“344. doi: 10.1159/000051787. [PubMed] [Cross Ref]Friedman T, Westreich M, Mozes SN, et al. Tattoo Pigment in Lymph Nodes Mimicking Metastatic Malignant Melanoma. Plast Reconstructive Surg. 2003;111:2120 €“2122. doi: 10.1097/01.PRS.0000057101.95872.A1. [PubMed] [Cross Ref]
 
Last edited:
JoeTillman

JoeTillman

Valued member
I can't speak for all pigments but to compare the pigments used in modern scalp micropigmentation with better SMP companies to tattoo ink buildup from thirty years ago is kind of silly. I get what TC is saying, I really do, but the information provided has zero evidence of even the most haneous inks used thirty years ago as being problematic long term.

I can't speak for all permanent SMP pigments but tricopigmentation pigments are made in the EU and the EU has guidlines that are far more stringent than the FDA and all components of any pigment manufactured and/or sold in the EU must pass testing that clears it from being carcinogen free and mutagen free. There are tattoo inks, some used in some pemanent SMP "shops" that has been banned in the EU and were still found to be used in the UK after the ban was enacted. This is the kind of stuff that gets my gourd.

I won't get into the permanent vs. temporary issue as that is irrelevant. I will however state that there are more documented cases of people developing cancer or other diseases from drinking tap water than there are people developing cancer or diseases from pigmentation procedures.
 
Top