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SMP, the most important questions I have (experts needed)

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Paleocapa89

Valued member
Hi all,
I am thinking proactively about the future, and how SMP could be used to camouflage FUE donor scars. However if there is one thing I have learned is that I will never ever again jump into something without the proper research beforehand.
We know that there have been tattooing for thousands of years and they are considered to be pretty safe. However, to my understanding SMP is different in two important ways. It is injected into the upper layer of the skin and not the deeper layer where regular tattoos go and the ink used has a smaller molecular structure (although I am not sure about this)
Whether it is temporary or permanent, I have questions regarding their safety and their effectiveness and cosmetic value
Safety:
Permanent SMP:
1: The first and most important: can we be sure that the substance that is injected into the upper layer of the skin will in fact stay there and will not travel anywhere else in the body entering the lymphatic system for example and or can we be sure if it is get's carried away, it will not cause problems down the road like cancer etc?
2: What exactly happens when the ink fades? I would assume it fades because the molecules brake up and some of the molecules get carried away by our system.
3: What happens when we try to remove SMP? I would assume again that the laser breaks down the molecules and the small particles get carried away by our system.

Temporary SMP:
1: what happens when the ink fades, how does it get excreted by our body exactly? Does it enter our lymphatic system? Can we be sure that it will not cause problems like cancer down the road?
2: I have read that temporary ink particles are coated in silicone. To my knowledge, silicone can't be excreted from the body. What happens to the silicone when the ink fades, where does it go? What happens when we are repeating the temporary SMP? Are we accumulating silicone in our body without the knowledge of it's long term effect?

Effectiveness and cosmetic value:
1:How does temporary and permanent SMP work in scar tissue, will it fade or will the ink flow everywhere in the scar tissue creating a smudgy look? Where can we see the photos of stellar results?
2: If an SMP fades and needs a touch up doesn't that mean that you will only get a new layer of ink on top of the faded layer of ink ultimately creating a big splodge on your head?

I would really like if some experts in the field could share his/her knowledge.
Thanks.
 
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V

Vinci Hair Clinic

Valued member
Paleocapa89 wrote:
Hi all,
I am thinking proactively about the future, and how SMP could be used to camouflage FUE donor scars. However if there is one thing I have learned is that I will never ever again jump into something without the proper research beforehand.
We know that there have been tattooing for thousands of years and they are considered to be pretty safe. However, to my understanding SMP is different in two important ways. It is injected into the upper layer of the skin and not the deeper layer where regular tattoos go and the ink used has a smaller molecular structure (although I am not sure about this)
Whether it is temporary or permanent, I have questions regarding their safety and their effectiveness and cosmetic value
Safety:
Permanent SMP:
1: The first and most important: can we be sure that the substance that is injected into the upper layer of the skin will in fact stay there and will not travel anywhere else in the body entering the lymphatic system for example and or can we be sure if it is get's carried away, it will not cause problems down the road like cancer etc?
2: What exactly happens when the ink fades? I would assume it fades because the molecules brake up and some of the molecules get carried away by our system.
3: What happens when we try to remove SMP? I would assume again that the laser breaks down the molecules and the small particles get carried away by our system.

Temporary SMP:
1: what happens when the ink fades, how does it get excreted by our body exactly? Does it enter our lymphatic system? Can we be sure that it will not cause problems like cancer down the road?
2: I have read that temporary ink particles are coated in silicone. To my knowledge, silicone can't be excreted from the body. What happens to the silicone when the ink fades, where does it go? What happens when we are repeating the temporary SMP? Are we accumulating silicone in our body without the knowledge of it's long term effect?

Effectiveness and cosmetic value:
1:How does temporary and permanent SMP work in scar tissue, will it fade or will the ink flow everywhere in the scar tissue creating a smudgy look? Where can we see the photos of stellar results?
2: If an SMP fades and needs a touch up doesn't that mean that you will only get a new layer of ink on top of the faded layer of ink ultimately creating a big splodge on your head?

I would really like if some experts in the field could share his/her knowledge.
Thanks.


You are correct, SMP is different to traditional tattoo body art as it does not place the ink so deep; or should not be anyway. Tissue compound is very different and reacts differently to an alien in the skin.

Many papers have been written, some by the FDA, and what you always find is speculation; they take the worst scenario to make to make the point, but then do not prove or disprove either way. What is clear is the lower the metal content the better, for your result and your general well-being.

There are many pigments available; many National health services use pigments for reconstruction, they are expensive due to the low metal content, carbon, mercury; getting them down to a level they will not be absorbed in to the body, but rather are just flushed out naturally.

The use of non-medical based pigments generally has high metal content and do not react well to the skin. The colour and or colour change, how it settles or spreads over time and inconsistent fading, leaving birth mark like areas over the scalp.

Different skin tissue will react; for example we normally suggest three sessions on a virgin scalp to build up the tone, make adjustments. Scar tissue can react differently, the first session should be used to build up tone, with the second and third enhancing the result, possibly needing more dependent on the scarring.

Fading and placing ink over ink; as there is such a large variant in inks I can only discuss our medical based inks; it will fade over time, we find around 5 years, sometimes longer when a person wants there result to be enhanced. The measure of ink in to the body is so small it makes no difference; assuming it is placed correctly and good ink there is no reason why it should spread.

From a cosmetic point of view, what are you looking to achieve? hide scarring? at what hair length?


 
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SMPLooks

SMPLooks

Member
Hi paleo,
Firstly, the only true temporary pigment that I am aware of is manufactured by Beauty Medical. It is the product my clinic uses exclusively. Milena Lardi developed this product specifically to be used for scalp micro pigmentation and to disappear completely from your system over time.

This product is temporary for a few reasons. One, we only inject it at .5mm. Second, the particles in our pigment are 15 microns in size, and all perfectly round. This allows the bodies' cell defense system to "eat" the particles. The pigment is absorbed by the macrophages of our immune system and is naturally excreted, like all materials the body doesn €™t need, through urine for example.

The particles are not encapsulated by silicone, but by a simil-siliconic bio-compatible material that can be excreted from the body the way I said before. All the particles and substances are developed to be excreted from the body without causing any side effect.

Regarding the effectiveness in scar tissue: This varies from person to person and depends on the level of scarring. We usually recommend doing a test patch first to see how the pigment holds up over a few weeks and then procede based on that. The great aspect of temporary is that you don't have to be concerned about the product turning color or migrating.

Hope this helps and feel free to contact me with any further questions.
 
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Paleocapa89

Valued member
Dear Vinci Hair Clinic

Thank you for your response. I am researching SMP heavily because I jumped into a FUE hair transplant too young with very little knowledge and in my opinion I was not properly assessed and informed by the clinic either. To jump to the point, I am going to lose my hair in a norwood 5-6 pattern very soon and I don't have nearly enough donor to compensate for it.

I think my only way out (unless researchers come up with hair cloning or a viable cure in the near future) is to shave my hair or buzz it very close to the scalp. I have a reason to be afraid if I do that the FUE extraction sites will be very visible, as there was no effort put into making them hard to notice.

I am proactively researching SMP but I do not want to make the same mistakes again. I think SMP can be a very good tool to hide FUE scars but only if my listed concerns can be answered comfortingly.

From what I have read so far, in my opinion permanent SMP seems to be the safer option medically, as it is not needed to be injected into the body every 1-2 year however, as our skin ages and our immune system works it will fade eventually. I read a paper that stated that the ink will migrate to the lymphatic system as it gets excreted slowly. And when that happens it might be carried away to other parts of the body. Can we be sure that is safe? I hope so, but I am still searching for some proof.

Temporary SMP seems to be the an appealing option as it is advertised by stating that the ink is organic and it is excreted by our body in 1-2 years and it completely fades. That sounds good, but I also read that the ink is encapsulated in silicone which - to my best knowledge - can't be excreted by our body.

There are so many unanswered question, I guess SMP has it's own risks - as any other treatments - I just hope that we can assess and understand those risk entirely before we decide on having an SMP.
 
V

Vinci Hair Clinic

Valued member
Hi Paleocapa89,

You are correct to be cautious and take your time, once bitten twice shy as they say. The problem is, even though tattooing has been around for so many years there has not been any conclusive studies to most of the questions you have asked, so you are going to find it hard to get proof either way. It ´s similar but obviously different to research in cell phone use; inconclusive and can be argued from either angle, with so many variants to take into account.

When any alien substance is placed into the skin it has to go somewhere over time; but going back much is down to the quality of the inks used and how they are applied, cheaper inks, normally from two specific countries have much higher metal content and need to be avoided. I can ´t talk about other SMP providers, but good ones I would think have not too dissimilar protocols; our inks have a very low metal content to the point there would be no complication or affects even with an MRI scan and are based on a medical tattooing formula used for aeriola reconstruction.

I took this from a Cancer Biology site, can ´t claim it for myself, or verify but it is a straight quote:

"In the last forty years there have only been 50 documented cases of squamous cell carcinoma, malignant skin melanoma or basal cell carcinoma with possible connections to tattoos, compared to the millions of tattoos obtained. Epidemiological studies on the effects of tattoo ink could be taken, although they would not be easy. A large number of tattooed people would have to be monitored over a long period of time to see whether they developed problems such as skin cancer near their tattoos. The low number of reported skin cancers arising in tattoos could be considered coincidental."

We should always try to minimise risk in our decisions, especially when it comes to something cosmetic. It ´s your body and well-being, I hope your research goes well, whatever the outcome and your decision. If I can help further happy to.

Phil
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Paleo I would suggest to you that anything hindering/blocking the lymphatic system and the flow of lymph fluid is not healthy. Tattoo ink has been shown in studies to build up in the nodes over the long term keeping in mind these are normal tattoos where the ink migrates over a very long period of time. The problem with ink that enters the lymphatic system in a very short period of time is still unknown. Even with those that need to have the ink lasered off one of the biggest issues in my opinion is all the ink entering the nodes in a very short period of time.

There is plenty of information out there on Cancer and I would suggest reading books because making connections is something one needs to do on their own. Cancer is often a very slow progressive disease and many of the therapies revolve around detoxing the lymphatic system. Many industries work on the concept of the consumer proving their product harmed them.............almost impossible to do as economically it is just not feasible.

I would also suggest to you that if decide to have this procedure performed in the future you need to meet dozens and dozens of patients that have had the procedure at several different points in time.

Keep in mind this most important point and this applies to just about everything out there. Most information is going to be marketing as information drives revenue and revenue drives information. Using forums are great especially since you can make connections but also understand that you can easily be misled as many try to create buzz. That buzz could be going to Turkey or something else. Try to read all the forums everyday and most of the posts or at least skim it. It will give you a better idea of what you should be doing. It can become a learning experience or it can become a trap.

Expertise in my opinion can come from patients who have been around a long time and do not work in the industry. Try to connect to those people.

Personally I wouldn €™t tattoo my head. I think long term it creates too many problems. Just wait it out for now but yes research it well.

I would also suggest being fair to the clinic and waiting 12 months.
 
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topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Paleo I would suggest you try to get in touch with a few of the posters that have commented to your thread on another forum. They have real stories and they can help support you as just speaking to someone in a similar situation can relieve some of your stress. I think you might be able to get through all of this with just a lesson learned if you can wait it out 12 months. I would suggest just wearing a hat and getting busy I can also suggest some books that might be helpful.

Forums can be deceptive. If this was a few years ago you could easily be dealing with a strip scar on the back of your head because that is what many of those putting lists together were doing to make the most money now they are offering Turkey and tattooing. You have to understand how this all works in order to move forward and not get deeper into the web.

This posting on your thread says a lot and that could have easily been you so consider yourself lucky in some respects. I honestly think you can get past this if you can wait it out. I believe you also wrote you are seeking counseling €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦..yes good idea the more you speak to others the easier it will be for you and you can contact me anytime or stop by the house €¦ €¦ €¦..I €™m in Chicago

Definitely contact those 2 posters below they can help support you.

I am devastingly depressed from my strip procedure €¦I made a very very bad mistake by doing a €œfill in € procedure when I was 27 (something I regret more than anything) not realizing I would eventually get 2 other procedures of over 1000 grafts later and have a scar that I can not cut my hair short or shave my head €¦
I am having suicidal thoughts and wish I never did this at all..Id give anything to have no scars and just shave my head like I should have done. I was too young, uneducated and stupid at the time I made the decision for the first procedure. Now my friends with less hair than I have, Im jealous of.
Is there anyway to cover up this strip scar with FUE? DOes the donor area have to be shaved to do this? Will it cover it enough to cut my hair short again? Should I wait for potential hair multiplication someday?
Your opinion and expertise is appreciated. Im overwhelmed here..please help

I have never once been on medication for any psychological condition. Never been clinically depressed. I would deem myself mentally rock solid prior to this FUE HT ! But seriously this FUE HT has brought me to my f*ing knees mentally! I've never experienced anything that has shaken me like this.I'm ashamed to admit but in my darkest hours I've even grappled with ridiculous notions of suicide. I know it's stupid, but I can't help the thoughts that pop into my head. What can say other than that since my HT, I have become depressed. That's just the way it is right now for me. I've never had such a demoralizing blow to my self imaging and right there on my face and forehead for the world to judge me!OMG! My recipient area is badly red purple discolored, scaly, bumpy, and I swear I can't imagine it ever getting to the point that it will be undetectable from the surrounding area of normal skin. It's scarred damaged tissue it would appear to be. I'm struggling to come to terms with this fact. This dreaded red line across my forehead just mocks me every time I glance in a mirror. A daily reminder of this mistake I made. But what can you do really? The only thing I can do is wear a hat to conceal my embarrassment and this also avoids questions and judgement. In addition, try and stay as positive as I can. I've definitely learned that even a mediocre FUE HT is WAY WORSE than just being bald! My advice to anyone seeking a HT is to take more time than I did and consider all the risk carefully. Don't jump into this like I did. I should've just accept my the aging process and balding with dignity,
 
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topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Paleo if you take a look at your own thread on another forum I will give you my expert opinion on something. The poster TR3B my guess would be a person that works in the industry. You would have to have been around for a long time to maybe pick up on it as it is very subtle. I usually don't comment on it and just go along when posting and see what a poster has to say. Does it matter for you..........probably not but it might for the next guy as that is who they are setting things up for. That is how it often works setting up the poster history too............always meet people in order to evaluate their honesty and if they are real...............there is no other way as it all becomes a big game. That is the type of information you need moving forward and if you decide tattooing is for you that is your decision just approach it the same way because that game is no different.
I just replied to a poster on this forum not that long ago.............was he real............probably not but that is how it works.............as long as you know that it can help protect you from making any bad decision moving forward.
Good luck to you.
Also keep in mind some of these guys with the hair tattoo just opened up store fronts recently. Who are they are what were they doing before they decided to be so helpful.
 
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JoeTillman

JoeTillman

Valued member
Paleo if you take a look at your own thread on another forum I will give you my expert opinion on something. The poster TR3B my guess would be a person that works in the industry. You would have to have been around for a long time to maybe pick up on it as it is very subtle. I usually don't comment on it and just go along when posting and see what a poster has to say. ... I just replied to a poster on this forum not that long ago.............was he real............probably not but that is how it works.............as long as you know that it can help protect you from making any bad decision moving forward. Good luck to you.

Your expertise is impressive. You were obviously catching on to the "subtle" hints he was giving that he may not be real in his first post thanking you for your insights. You had a great strategy too. Post one response then two additional unsoliciited responses with nearly 1200 words just to see what he'd say. That was brilliant. It's good that you brought it up here so we all know that you knew what was going on the whole time.

http://www.hairlossexperiences.com/view_topic.php?id=7011&forum_id=8






 
JoeTillman

JoeTillman

Valued member
Paleo,

The first thing you need to know about any form of SMP is that no one can guarantee that it will work in scar tissue, much less a few thousand dots of scar tissue. This is where testing is important should you decide to consider the option more seriously. Scar tissue is different from skin tissue so sometimes the pigment isn't very stable. It can spread, blotch or even completely disappear. I can't count how many times I've heard someone say they'll get "x" procedure and "just fill in the scar or scars with SMP". It doesn't work like that. If anyone tells you otherwise, scratch them off your list.
 
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topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Paleo judging by some of your postings elsewhere I see you are starting to connect the dots. You might be asking yourself why didn €™t I see this before? Tough question to answer as most are simply blinded by desperation which puts them in a weak position and don €™t beat yourself up over it as it takes a very long time to see it.

You might often see a doctor, rep and poster working a forum. They seem to be having an innocent conversation when it might very well be orchestrated for your viewing like a 3 ring circus. It looks like 3 separate rings but in fact it is only one show. Of course there are those that come to forums with good intentions but trying to figure it all out takes years which is why some in the industry will dissuade from the idea that research takes years. Their is fear that you might catch on which in fact does happen with guys that just tend to read and/or post as opposed to those who might take the bait too early.

What you are doing now is helping others so keep doing that and it will come back to you. Yes listen to what those in the industry have to say and observe.

Keep this quote in mind from €œThe Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success €

€œWhen using internet chat forums if one is under threat the group shows signs of sticking together. The views tend to converge and conform under this threat. Similar to when a herd animal is threatened by a predator it tends to huddle closer to the group. €


Paleo did you ever work with that one guy that didn €™t care what he did to move forward. He would step on coworkers but in a kind of underhanded way where they didn €™t even know it was happening. He always came off like being the nicest, most giving person but in reality he was just self serving geek. It's only when you started observing that person do the same to others that you connected the dots. It kind of works the same way in the ht industry €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦look for those signs when observing those in the industry.

 
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Paleocapa89

Valued member
Thank you for your answers topcat and Joe

I totally agree if I ever decide to go with SMP I will need to take it slow and test it how the scars are accepting the ink.

Since you have more experience and probably witnessed many cases I would like to ask you:

Is there any way one could prepare his skin and scars to maximize the possible outcome? I've read good things about micro-needling, fraxel, and I think Recell's technology is also carrying great promise when treating scars.

What is you opinion?
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Paleo I know of only one person that actually had Recell and their opinion was that it brought back a little color, gave them a scar on the hip and that they wouldn't recommend it as a solution.
You can check out other forums for some guys that have had laser work in the repair section.
 
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Paleocapa89

Valued member
hey topcat, I believe I read that post with the dissatisfied Recell patient and it did make me sad.

However reading more on Recell I am starting to believe that the technology has improved since and that the doctor who carries out the therapy has an important role on the outcome as well. (Just like in HT or the laser treatments)

But I do not want to sound like a Recell sales person, I just want to believe in the technology :)
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Paleo these are actually patients I have corresponded with and I'm don't think they posted to the forum so that might be something else you are looking at. I'm not sure. There was a second patient that asked dozens and dozens of questions and decided not to do it. I will try and contact them and ask them for their opinion again.
And yes check it out.............investigate all options I'm all for that.
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Paleo here is one reply from a patient that actually had Recell. Of course this is the Internet and I have not met him in person but I have had contact with a close friend of his so take it for what it's worth and I'm sure laser can be somewhat effective but more investigation on your part is required.
I think it's a very very bad idea to do it. Currently there is nothing that can remove a scar . However there is one treatment that I am very intrigued with but I'll say nothing until I see more results .
 
P

Paleocapa89

Valued member
hey topcat

I meant I have read that post of yours where you were referring to a patient that had zero or very little success with Recell. I haven't really come across any real patient testimonies on the internet, except one where a woman used it on a scar on her forehead. I think it was in an acne scar discussion forum. Anyway she had a deep scar (maybe from laser or a chemical peel) and after the Recell the scar became smaller and some of the pigmentation returned. I admit though, sadly it was not a miracle result.

I have read that the technology developed since and even some USA government agencies are funding it and the US military is testing it as well. Although it is mainly for burn victims. I have great hope in this technology, but we will see. I don't want to derail this thread, maybe I will create another one for scar treating technologies.

I am intrigued though what that mysterious treatment is that you are referring to :)
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Paleo that mysterious treatment is something that the patient wrote and I didn't ask. If he sends me the information in the future I will forward it to you.
BTW it's nice to see some of what you have written elsewhere seems to be having an effect and it's quite possible that changes to a list might be made. It's too bad many feel the need to orchestrate much of what is seen on some of the forums.
That is what it is about, being a Good Shepard and gently moving some in the industry in the right direction. I know sometimes they get worked up into a frenzy and it's like herding cats but over time the truth does seem to win out. I have seen some clinics give up the robot and many no longer promoting Acell so it's important to keep a watchful eye and make others aware.
I would still pass on the SMP but it does come down to a personal decision.
 
P

Paleocapa89

Valued member
topcat, I agree with you. I hope that my case can start something that can lead to a better and more ethical industry. Or to well informed, careful patients.

I would also gladly pass on the smp and I will probably wait and research much more before I jump into something, but if it is the only way to repair my donor, sadly, I do not see any other exit strategies from my situation.

Hopefully when my time comes and I can not delay shaving my head any longer there will be more information available on smp's safety and/or other technologies will be available that might help me.
 
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topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Paleo the best advice I can give you would be to evaluate over time. Regardless of if it's a type of procedure, doctor/clinic, poster, forum etc time is a better indicator than often what is posted.
Most young guys don't want to hear this message as they are in a hurry and I would suggest to them that is more prudent to spend plenty of time even if that means years.
Good luck to you.
 
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