SMP

[topccat29]

The carcinogenicity of the ink is not the issue. The fact that you are congesting the lymphatic system with pigment is enough to cause long term health concerns.

It €™s no different than a woman who wears a tight bra 24 hours a day. She is unknowingly increasing her risk for breast cancer in a drastic way by stifling the flow of lymph fluid which needs to constantly move throughout the body to perform its work. The bra itself is not carcinogenic.

With temporary tattooing you are clogging up the nodes with pigment.

I don €™t expect anyone selling this procedure to agree with me. If they did than they would be admitting that they are causing harm to others which would create liability issues.

Best to go with we didn €™t know €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦we thought it was safe.

 

[JoeTillman]

The carcinogenicity of the ink is not the issue. The fact that you are congesting the lymphatic system with pigment is enough to cause long term health concerns.

What changed your mind? A year ago you said that there were cancer risks...

June, 2014 - Do Not Tattoo Your Head by "Topcat"

But if I tell you it disappears and builds up as black gook in your lymph nodes increasing your risk of lymphatic cancer then all of a sudden it €™s not so appealing. But sometimes people tend to leave very important information out in order to sell something €¦ €¦ €¦I have been around this industry as an outsider for about 30 years now. That is the way many operate so you better educate yourself and do not depend on someone selling something to always do it for you. ... In my opinion you do not want to have to deal with an Oncologist. If you think hair transplantation is scary €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦..the cancer industry has it beat by 100 fold. You will never be able to prove your lymphatic cancer is a result of ink build up in body. You do not have enough money or years in your life to do it.

So is it or is it not cancer that is the worry? Last year you were adamant about it, now it's the lymphstic drainage system. Again, you can't point to a single documented case. Oh wait, it's because no one can afford to find out on their own if that is why they are dying of cancer, right?

 

[topccat29]

The fact is that some inks are known to be carcinogenic as the ingredients of the inks are known. Some like to use the line trade secret so that the ingredients of the inks are unknown. I pointed out in another thread that information on the carcinogenicity of GMO plants was also suppressed in the same way. The information one needed to know 20+ years ago was considered a trade secret. This tactic is used in many industries and that is in fact why one needs to take the time to research as those in the business of selling are certainly not going to tell you.

We can also take something like dog poop as it is completely 100% organic as people love to throw around that buzzword organic to sell their product. The average person has been conditioned to have a certain belief and organic means safe to most. You wouldn €™t inject dog poop into your lymph nodes €¦ €¦ €¦..organic or not.

So your ink is organic and it €™s a trade secret I understand all of that and how it can be used as a selling point €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦my comment on the ink itself was made before many started to throw around the organic and trade secret lines.

I €™m sorry that you don €™t agree with me and I know it might not be good for business or one's image. What's important though is are we doing something positive or negative. I hear plenty giving advice on the Internet that I don €™t agree with. For example these guys that are taking Propecia and at the same time using exogenous testosterone. They too are cancer time bombs. I mean seriously you have these so called experts out there encouraging 30 year guys with low testosterone that it €™s all okay when they seem to know so little about how to raise testosterone naturally or why it may even be low and most especially at that age. Completely irresponsible advice in my opinion.

But sometimes that is all it takes a word of encouragement regardless of the consequences and people buy into it. They just need someone to tell them it will be okay.


To watch those that are practicing medicine inject ink into people's heads borders on the surreal for me. I guess I just don't get it.

 

[ClinicByChoice41]

What i thought now is SMP is interesting thing to try before having hair transplant.

 

[MckGee]

I have also had MSP with Vinci and have been delighted with them throughout the whole process. The consultants I met and the technicians were all very welcoming and knowledgable. Can't speak highly enough of them. ¬b`
I will post my results shortly.

 

[MckGee]

}:BY:>?))N_) ¬b`

 

[JoeTillman]

Some like to use the line trade secret so that the ingredients of the inks are unknown.

And that's the problem with your "information". You don't realize that in the EU one cannot use the line "trade secret" and get away with it when it comes to pigments. The EU is super tough on things like this.

The fact is that some inks are known to be carcinogenic as the ingredients of the inks are known.

Known by who? Again, point to one case where it was direclty stated that ink caused cancer. Again, in the EU they are very tough on these things. Kurosumi, one of the leading ink manufacturers, was banned in the UK and the EU for having carcinogenic properties in their inks. Kurosumi is made in NY State, the realm of the FDA, and is mainly used in standard tattoo parlors. Some may be using it for SMP but it would be rare to find it in such establishments.

I €™m sorry that you don €™t agree with me and I know it might not be good for business or one's image.

Topcat, are you able to enter into a discussion or debate without having to use the "not good for business" line as your silver bullet? It's the easy argument, I get it, but it's getting a bit tired.

I'd think that with your mission of helping others you'd be on standard tatoo forums preaching about cancer. That is where you'll find some cases because of tattoo "sleeves" or other large areas "inked" hide the signs of skin cancer as they develop. Moles that may be changing due to mutation are not as easily recognized if surrounded by ink. It's not from the ink itself, it's from the difficulty in seeing changes in the skin tissue caused by sun damage. SMP pales in comparison on a sheer numbers scale but it is what it is. You just want to be heard.

 

[hairhair98]

topccat29 wrote:

Yes I think we can both agree, anything that is a viable long term solution that does not put the patient at risk now or in the future would be the only logical option.

S.O.P. for you... once you get called out on your 'it looks bad and people will make fun of you' BS, to the point that you can no longer deny that the overwhelming majority of evidence doesnt support your opinion, you shift gears to the 'it's dangerous to your health' line.

Unfortunately I do not consider the hair dot tattoo a viable long term solution

I disagree, because what does 'long term' even mean in this situation? There are people out there who have had SMP for 10 years, and many are approaching, or in, the 5-7 year range. Will one treatment at 25 last until you are 90? No, of course not... but neither will a hairpiece or concealer, and if you get a HT you are eventually going to lose more hair and need additional HT's or have to deal with bald spots.

With SMP you go back for touchups as needed, and the hair loss remains hidden for as long as you want it to. If you decide you dont want the treatment anymore, you let it fade or go get laser to remove it.

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I don €™t expect anyone selling this procedure to agree with me. If they did than they would be admitting that they are causing harm to others which would create liability issues.

As JoeTillman said, the 'its not good for business' line is a lame excuse that isn't even accurate. I previously provided you a link to a discussion about tattoos and cancer on the HIS forum, where a professor of biomedical engineering, who has close knowledge of the ingredients in the ink that HIS uses, said that while there is no evidence to support it at the moment, he suspects that a slightly elevated risk for cancer (comparable to what there might be for drinking coke or pepsi) may be shown in time.

Here is his full response.

So again, you exhibit willful ignorance -- if not outright deception -- as you spread more misinformation... in this case, that SMP clinics wont acknowledge a cancer risk because it's 'bad for business'. HIS literally allowed that discussion to take place on their forum, and HIS staff even 'liked' the post.

This is similar to your other cons.piracy theory about how the people that perform SMP know it will harm the clients down the road, but they do it anyway for the money... except you fail to acknowledge that the majority of SMP practitioners have SMP themselves. Why do you fail to acknowledge it? Because it debunks your con.spiracy theory.

If you cant get the stuff that is essentially non-debatable correct (that people will make fun of you, that you wont get girls, that SMP clinics wont acknowledge health risks), it destroys your credibility when you discuss issues that ARE debatable (like how much of a cancer risk SMP poses).

If you want to make more people aware of the slight risk that HatingHats discussed in that link, that is fine, because everyone considering SMP should be aware of it... but dont act like you have some secret information which makes the cancer risk out to be as severe as you make it seem, because you dont.

There's a right way and a wrong way to go about what you are doing, and the way you are doing it creates overblown or completely nonexistent fears for those researching SMP... which is a terrible way to help 'vulnerable people', as you put it, who are trying to uncover the truth.

 

[JoeTillman]

Hairhair98,

I don't like making "well said" posts but in this case, well said. "Willful ignorance" is a fantastic term and I think it sums of the approach of Topcat on a number of levels. To be fair, I applaud his message of caution but yes, somtimes it goes too far. But of course, if I agreed with him completely, it would be bad for business

 

[topccat29]

Bart asked for a study showing tattoo ink build up in the lymph nodes. I posted the study simply because he asked and the study includes pictures of that ink build up in the node. If someone feels it is useful than great €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦if not that €™s okay too. Maybe it €™s worth the risk for some which becomes a personal decision. At the very least they are entitled to the information and trying to dissuade others from posting about it is wrong in my opinion.
This picture is from the study posted earlier in the thread. It is a microscopic view of the node with the dark spots being the pigment.

 

[JoeTillman]

And what does that photo have to do with proving that pigment causes cancer (your claims last year) or clogging the lymhatic system (your claim this year)? You made these claims, back them up.

At the very least they are entitled to the information and trying to dissuade others from posting about it is wrong in my opinion.

I have no problem with you posting and giving your opinion but as I've said in the past, I have a problem with you posting information as fact when it is only your opinion based on incomplete, misleading or even false information.

 

[topccat29]

The body needs a properly functioning lymph system where the lymph fluid is freely flowing by movement and not backed up due to buildups in the nodes. It €™s the same reason why sitting for long periods of time can be deadly in the long term. One needs to be in motion in order for the lymph fluid to be pumped throughout the body.

Joe I get it. You don €™t seem to make a connection between an optimal functioning lymph system and health. Most in my opinion simply take it all for granted until it shuts down or functions at a level that promotes disease.

That picture posted depicts a node with ink embedded in it. That ink should not be there. Hopefully people can connect the dots and form their own opinion.


I think we can all agree that sacrificing one's health for hair is not a good trade off and although disappearing ink sounds like a good idea..............there is a very good chance that it's not.


Joe I wish I could support you on this disappearing ink idea but sorry I can't do that, the ink has to go somewhere.

 

[hairhair98]

I think we can all agree that sacrificing one's health for hair is not a good trade off

No, we dont all agree on that.... reference HatingHat's post that i provided earlier for a better explanation than i can give.

At a certain point, a slight health risk decades down the road might be outweighed by the crushing depression of hair loss, and the resulting isolation it causes, in your 20's.

 

[SMP]

A lot of for and against here. What are your thoughts on the procedure after this debate.

 

[clarvison]

I've come to the realization that there will be those whom are advocates of the SMP procedure and those whom are detractors. Rightfully so in my opinion. I think there are some agendas in this forum that prohibit a genuine objective point of view, but you'll find that in all types of hair loss websites. I do appreciate the feedback no matter its genesis.
I have done a lot of research on the Scalp Micropigmentation procedure. I've contacted numerous companies, discussed results with previous clients or so-called clients and asked difficult questions to satisfy my curiosity. I've read medical journals and gathered as much information as I can on the web. I'm really tired of researching it, to be honest. I feel I've done all the research I can to this point.
I've also realized that each person has to do their due diligence and decide whether or not that SMP is right for them. I'ts a personal choice. I feel I've done that. I still don't know if it's right for me. I will continue to ponder it and hopefully come to a conclusion soon.
It's definitely a financial investment as well. I guess I have to come to a point of whether or not being bald bothers me enough to invest thousands of dollars to create the illusion of hair. I'm not quite to that point yet. Maybe I never will be..............