Do Not Tattoo Your Head

[topccat29]

You see that young kid complaining of chest pains and having all kinds of tests? He is crapping in his pants and praying to God that everything is going to be okay and that he has not damaged his heart. He might be saying to himself please God let me fix this and I promise I will be a better person but he is on his own for the most part and mommy is not going to come to change the diaper he just messed.

This scene is repeated over and over every day in the hair loss world. I know I was there 30 years ago not angry but afraid of how I was going to fix this situation and like a wounded animal very easy prey.

That kid that made that post is a wounded animal. I could probably tell him or sell him anything and he will be all ears. But you see a real man would not do this and this is what you have working this industry. Too many predators, so young guys better start paying attention and you better start listening to those with a message that might not be what you want to hear but may just be in your best interest. Yes there are some good people doing good work....................they are few...............burn that point into your brain....................there are just a few.....................


The hardest part for me to understand about much of this is the guys that prey on the young wounded animals..........................I honestly don't get it...............what happened in their life that they think this is okay.


Recommending some young guy tattoo his head is bad advice in the long run €¦ €¦ €¦.absolutely bad advice in my opinion. If some guy that has been through the ringer and is mature finds it brings him some relief then good for him.

 

[matt iulo]

hi Topcat,

ive been following some of your posts and its pretty obvious your position on scalp pigmentation. I sincerely dont wish to debate you or publicly argue...you are of course entitled to your opinion and i have no doubt that your position comes from genuine concern.

I must ask though, what are you basing your opinion on the overall safety of SMP? Ill admit, i havent read through every post in this thread, so if you have mentioned it i apologize.

The reason for that question is i have now been employed by 2 permanent cosmetic companies, and since went on to open my own clinic. Each time, ample testing of both the pigments and materials used had been conducted. These were carried out by both FDA certified labs, cosmetic dermatologists, and in one case a former Biomed engineer.

the truth is micropigmentation and permanent cosmetics has been around for quite some time. Are you saying you have an issue with the whole entire permanent cosmetic industry? Women routinely have their eyebrows done, facial scars pigmented, areola reconstruction- to name a few. These are very similar pigments and techniques to SMP. There are even several organizations that assist in certifications and supply similar materials.

https://www.micropigmentation.org/

http://www.spcp.org/

I appreciate your point on young men being thorough in their research, i would recommend the same. But to say that no young man should even consider SMP i feel is a bit off the mark. I personally had it done at 22 and can honest to god say, the best decision i made...

i see tons of mid 20's, who have had their confidence battered and this has made a massive impact in their lives. Poaching on the vulnerable is one thing, but i know personally in my consultations, all i need to do is share MY honest story.

I think of one story, a 17 year old alopecia totalis client, who was getting ready to go to college, but couldnt stand the thought of being inhibited by his condition. He wanted to start new. long and short, his mother broke down and cried after treatment, as did he. He soon sent me photos of his new girlfriend and 2 new suits he bought because he felt so much more confident. He was able to adjust his personality to the REAL him, rather than the timid kid he was in H.S.

So while i get that we dont want to see naive young guys make a uneducated decision, i would like to know what data you are basing your safety assessment on? Because as i mentioned these pigments and similar techniques have been around way before SMP evolved.

I look forward to your response, and like i said, i dont wish to debate, just sincerely understand your position a bit better.

-Matt

 

[topccat29]

Hi Matt sure no problem you seem to be a good guy.




Well I base my opinion on safety with some of the posts I have read where lumps appear on the head and neck right after the procedure some appear to be swollen lymph nodes. There is also enough evidence out there that tattoo ink has been shown to collect in the lymph nodes and this can be seen through the dissection of those nodes.


I gave a speech about 10 years ago on the connection between bras and breast cancer. Basically tight bras restrict the flow of lymph fluid causing the breast to swell up preventing the body from doing it's job that's the short version. If you looked at the numbers you would definitely have to say there is a connection and the point being the lymph system is critical in preventing disease in the body to overload it with ink is a bad idea.


I had an interesting conversation with someone at the gym last summer. This is a personal trainer and it €™s and MMA gym. This person was always asking me questions on nutrition which I was happy to answer as what I do is probably different than most. Being that this is an MMA gyms most of these guys have basically the same look €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦..shaved heads and loaded with ink. I felt comfortable asking him if I could ask him a question, was he worried about all that ink he had injected into his skin €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦I mean this guy was loaded and then I mentioned the lymph node issue €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦.he laughed and told me he actually had to have one of the nodes in his groin area removed as it was constantly swollen but he attributed it to resting an Olympic bar on that area too often performing power cleans €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦.I don €™t really buy it but of course that is my opinion many will not agree and sometimes people don't agree because it's simply might mean they were wrong or might make them appear foolish which I understand. It's not my intention to make someone feel bad about something that has already be done if anything I'm a good example of foolish decisions in the past as they were based on having limited knowledge.


I also believe what looks like a spike in gilomas and jaw cancers is due to the use of cell phones €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦.but not everyone is going to agree with me on that either because they don't have brain cancer. But someone like Sheryl Crow will tell you something different as she had the gilomas. One only needs to look at history to learn how business sometimes operates when it comes to making money first. It often takes a very long period of time once all the damage is done and a connection is made that it all becomes easy to see and for many it's too late. Just because the studies may not have been done does not mean the safety issue does not exist. Studies do not work that way as they are usually financed and performed by those that have something to gain.


My grandfather would tell me he would walk a mile for a Camel €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦I €™m not sure if you know what that means but chances are people wouldn €™t be making those types of statements today with what is now known and sometimes it takes years to find out.


I think there is an important point that most might not understand. There is no money in warning someone not to do something. Regardless of the issue if there is no money most will simply not take the time to push too hard as it all becomes a waste of time and those making money will be doing exactly the opposite and this applies to many things and this is why I'm such a firm believer in reading books.

 

[topccat29]

Sometimes when you have a bad hair transplant or a blue blob on your head they send you €œThe Letter €


By posting the Agreement on a public website, you have intentionally and improperly made public, certain confidential information which was intended to be viewed only by the parties to the Agreement. Your aforementioned conduct has caused damages and resulted in depreciation of the goodwill associated with the ********brand name. Accordingly, our clients will be entitled to commence legal proceedings seeking, amongst other relief, an injunction restraining you from repeating the aforementioned conduct and compensation for any damages that arise as a result of your conduct, as well as legal costs.


**************** hereby demand that you immediately and completely cease and desist from making further public postings of the Agreement, or information related to the Agreement, and that you immediately remove and delete all such posting that currently exist.


Please be further advised that we have been charged with monitoring this situation, and we will advise our clients to take all steps necessary to protect their rights and limit damages if you do not refrain from engaging in the aforementioned conduct immediately.

 

[topccat29]

This posting below is from another forum from about 1 month ago. Just to bring some balance to this section of the forum. If you are going to do this just do a small section and evaluate it............it's a much safer approach.

I think some artists and companies are better at the more blended hairlines, im honestly sad about my result so far. I shaved my head down with a foil razor and it really doesn't look good to me. I never noticed I had such a weird skull in the back, and now I'm just depressed about spending all this money. My gf hasn't seen me with my hat off since I got it and honestly I'm embarrassed and uncomfortable with the result even though I have a touch up Ina few weeks.

 

[BeNatural]

To Valued Member, so you are a hotshot lawyer, eh? A big-time litigator, right? Did they teach you how to spell in Law school? First, it's REFUTE, not "refuse my arguments". Second, it's FALLACY, not "phallacy"...genius.
And I believe Topcat was simply offering his opinion on SMP. No need to get riled-up over it. Agree, or disagree...leave it at that.

 

[topccat29]

Thanks for the comment BeNatural.


I commented on another forum about an article that appeared in a recent issue of GQ magazine on hair transplantation. It was Bosley related and what most don €™t seem to understand when they read something like that is it is providing social proof for the reader and gently nudging him into a specific direction. They don €™t see that angle so it €™s always good to present another view to give the subject more balance, something to think about when making a decision. Instead of everyone telling the man on the ledge to jump. Same would applying to this tattooing of dots on the head.


When a full page ad in a fitness magazine or even GQ runs close to $300K you better start believing there is a lot of nudging going on. Those ads back in the 80 €™s with Lee Bosley and Joe Weider the fitness publishing king always appearing to be buddies when pictured have some truth at least on a financial level they were very good buddies.

I spoke to a couple of Photoshop experts. They teach photography and how to use many of these editing programs for a living and they state that there is definitely some Photoshop going on with some of this tattoo work being presented online. Actually they both laughed when they took a look at some of the photos. For me personally it looks bad enough without the editing but the editing is making a statement about not only the procedure but the person. A person that does this is a liar and a cheat and certainly not someone that anyone should consider doing business with most especially when it comes to something that can have such a devastating effect on one €™s life.


Many in the industry do a great job at appearing to be good guys. Sometimes in reality that is all just a facade. They should go back to school get their GED and find a real job. Something better then tattooing dots.

 

[hairhair98]

BeNatural wrote:

To Valued Member, so you are a hotshot lawyer, eh? A big-time litigator, right? Did they teach you how to spell in Law school? First, it's REFUTE, not "refuse my arguments". Second, it's FALLACY, not "phallacy"...genius.
And I believe Topcat was simply offering his opinion on SMP. No need to get riled-up over it. Agree, or disagree...leave it at that.

#1: His name isn't "Valued Member".

#2: English is his second language.

 

[topccat29]

This quote below from a hair tattoo forum is important. This guy actually handled it all very well and consistent use of minoxidil has seemed to faded much of it over time. Many young guys might not handle is so well....................and that is the danger............that some young person will be so devastated by what he has done most especially after being the object of ridicule that maybe he decides to just end it...............something I'm sure most here would not want to see happen.


"After 4 months, I said 'f*ck it, if it really doesn't look bad then nobody will say anything' I took my hat off in a well lit room for the first time in that long, within 20 seconds someone caught a glimpse of my head and said 'hahaha what the f*ck have you done to your head!' Well that settled it, my fears were most certainly true."

 

[Baldy Bunnet]

topccat29 wrote:

This quote below from a hair tattoo forum is important. This guy actually handled it all very well and consistent use of minoxidil has seemed to faded much of it over time. Many young guys might not handle is so well....................and that is the danger............that some young person will be so devastated by what he has done most especially after being the object of ridicule that maybe he decides to just end it...............something I'm sure most here would not want to see happen.


"After 4 months, I said 'f*ck it, if it really doesn't look bad then nobody will say anything' I took my hat off in a well lit room for the first time in that long, within 20 seconds someone caught a glimpse of my head and said 'hahaha what the f*ck have you done to your head!' Well that settled it, my fears were most certainly true."

Any link to the thread top cat? Would be interesting to hear the full story

 

[topccat29]

Baldy it was from the hishair forum. It's an interesting thread and I can understand why it was locked.

"Thoughts on this forum" and a post by nightwood. He seemed to be well versed so I tend to believe what he wrote.

I also read another post on a different forum posted below


"i saw a guy with smp the other day on a bus, i bet he felt embarrassed he looked like a joke."


Point being..............I think this can turn into a very bad decision for most young guys so if you intend on pursuing it I would suggest just small trial area where it is not obvious.

 

[topccat29]

Here is recent posting on SMP from the other day that didn't go so well. There are more but I'm only posting this one. The poster is considering lasering it off his head but the complications of hypopigmentation makes it a huge gamble so he is not sure what to do now. I left the names out as it's not meant to bash anyone. If you decide to do this for your own sake just do a small test section.

Do not be sucked in by too much positive hype...............protect yourself. The happy faces will not be there for you should you need it. You will face any potential problems on your own............that's just the way it works.



I immediately went home, looked in the mirror and thought the dots were huge. This was not the case with *******. I waited and let things settle for about a month, but the promise of the dots shrinking and the color lightening made little difference. When I expressed my displeasure, I was told by ****** that no one else would notice and that he will blend it in better during this session. This time was no different, with the exception that now I had more huge dots that were too dark. When I complained to ***** and provided pictures, they were quick to follow up and send another experienced practitioner, to see in person. When he saw my head, he was shocked and couldn't believe it. He was really at a loss for words.

 

[topccat29]

Here is a reality check for many. I have been reading up on the mental health industry and much of it is jaw dropping. I €™m familiar with most of it but always a new stunner here and there.

This paragraph from €œMad In America € Bad Science, Bad Medicine and The Enduring Mistreatment of the Mentally Ill reminds me exactly of hair tattooing. I would also add one should think long and hard before they start taking some of the medications offered by that same industry. I have seen it firsthand and sometimes the brain rewiring starts with just one pill and then it €™s a very quick downhill slope from which there is no escape.


Just substitute lobotomy with hair dot tattooing or some of the bizarre procedures offered in the hair loss world.

The influence of money can be seen in other ways as well. Neurosurgeons had been waiting for some time for an operation like lobotomy to come along. In the 1930 €™s, they had to scramble for patients. They operated primarily on brain tumors, which were not common enough to provide most neurosurgeons with a prosperous practice. When Watts first set up his practice in Washington D.C. he told Fulton that he expected it would take years to make the practice profitable. Lobotomy offered neurosurgeons a whole new group of patients to operate on, and it wouldn €™t be difficult finding them.

Sometimes they would perform so many lobotomies in a day that their hands and arms would become so sore that they had lower level staff perform some of the procedures. They would often tell the patients that is was a simple operation and the recovery no more than 3 days. Only down side would be some black eyes for a few days so be sure to bring some sun glasses.

Worry about yourself and what happens to you as when it comes to money many let that take over their thought process. They put on a white jacket and all of a sudden you are to believe they have credibility.

 

[topccat29]

I spoke to someone the other day and their hair had receded behind the tattoo work. It presents a problem as one can only hope it fades. Otherwise there is a distinct difference in the 2 areas.

Laser can be considered but it seems to be opening up a bag of worms because one does not know for sure if the skin pigmentation will match. It is surely something to think about as having uneven skin pigmentation in the facial area might not sound like a big deal but it is a big deal as it becomes difficult to conceal.

 

[topccat29]

This is a recent quote from Dr. Woods. Right or wrong what I like most about him is he has the balls to just state his opinion without worry of how the industry perceives it. Yes he admits he makes less money than if he played the game but one must admire his courage and integrity to speak the truth which in the ends benefits the patient and not the self. As a patient of ht I have always found his words helpful in separating the wheat from the chaff.



And yes where does the pigment go and what happens long term..........not short term.........what happens long term and is it worth it?

All I am asking, is that for a clinic that "CLAIMS" to regularly do 5, 10 15 thousand grafts on someones head, why is he so deperate for a pigment coverup ??
And yes , macrophages take away the pigment , metals etc rather quickly, BUT WHERE TO ???....and what are the consequences ?? research it, but otherwise, in the EEC and FDA you trust. wake up.

Dr Woods

I never meant any personal offence to anyone, but I am in a position where I can ask awkard questions about the "standard of care" in this industry, because I am not part of that "industry standard" ...if I joined the boys club my income would double, triple, or even quadruple...and I was promised this on many occassions by many groups around the world. Its just that when I hit the sack, I can only sleep with a clear conscience, and I know my actions will one day be judged...


Dr Ray Woods

 

[Coopman]

Well there really seems to be an SMP explosion in the media recently. A huge number of people know about this now. I am not going to dig up old skeletons from this thread, I have made many statements which people may equally agree or disagree.


I am one of those kind of guys that if I make a statement. I make damn sure I do the research to validate my view. Sometimes I may get a PM from another forum user that has changed my point of view and if that happens I acknowledge it in my postings. We all sometimes change our opinions.


I am still not a fan of SMP but it is a viable treatment for the right candidate if they are not scared of getting busted.


But through my research I have seen some less than acceptable SMP work. There are guys who have had SMP and it just doesn't appear natural to them or others.


It is vitally important that anyone reading this who wants SMP. Get to know your Tattooist. Get personal recommendations. Some people are great Tattooists, but they are only a handful. Do you really want to settle for an average Tattooist? There are plenty of SMP guys who have had laser treatment to remove poor SMP.


If a tattooist posts on a forum. How do they come across as a human being? Clues are everywhere.

 

[topccat29]

I think that sometimes trying to help people can be viewed as being negative when it €™s not something they want to hear and as long as the point is made and it €™s out there then one needs to assume personal responsibility. Putting long term health issues to the side if one believes tattooing their head every few years is a good long term plan and makes sense than that is up to them.

Personally I have many strong views on many subjects and I just do not believe this is a good idea. I think recurring income is the holy grail for many and I tend to believe that is behind much of what one sees with this product. All one needs to do is start adding up the numbers of customers that have to keep coming back along with the costs of the procedure and then sometimes money can be the motivating factor and it's not so much about doing what is best for the person dealing with hair loss.

 

[Coopman]

Topcat

Absolutely agree. I had a few beers with my friend (Tattooist).

The subject of SMP came up as it regularly does when we have a beer. I mentioned that there are guys having regular top ups every few years.

He made an interesting point in respect to scarring when the new ink is inserted on top of the existing. He did not feel it would work well after 3+ touch ups. This is in respect to the appearance of the dots.

He may be wrong, but it would be good to hear whether the above scenario can happen, or what prevents it from happening.

Maybe a SMP provider can provide some insight on this.

 

[topccat29]

Coopman I agree .

The promoters themselves need to have multiple sessions as it fades and do this continuously over a 10-15 year period minimum in my opinion. This would mean going back every 1-2 years for a total of 7-15 procedures and then assess how well it all has turned out. I would also suggest having the lymph system imaged through MRI or some other modality with proof presented that the quickly disappearing ink does not build up in the nodes themselves is of no consequence. This would definitely add some weight to their promotion as opposed to just stating there is nothing to worry about.

I have not seen this yet with SMP and of course it €™s not expected this early. In fact we may never see it as some just opt for one procedure and move on while some promoters who are candidates choose not to have this procedure performed on themselves at all which in itself is very telling.

When you see the evidence with those that promote having multiple SMP sessions themselves over a span of years and are proud to wear it then it most definitely might be something to consider and I have no problem saying maybe a few of us were wrong. Just let them go first €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦let them pave the way for the younger guys by showing everyone what it has done for them long term. Let them walk the walk. Better to be wrong and not cause harm than to be wrong and cause a great deal of harm most especially long term.

It is my personal belief that if one were to have this treatment annually or bi annually to keep it all going with thousands of pigment injections over years costing thousands and thousands of dollars at some point one might ask themselves what am I doing to myself and how much longer can I do it €¦ €¦ €¦..maybe this was not such a good idea and a very poor long term solution. I think the potential for a greatly increased risk of cancer as all that pigment builds up in the lymph nodes is not worth the risk and trading hair for cancer somewhere down the road is a bad deal and that is something I think we can all agree on.

One has to look long term. Would a reasonable person have 15,000-30,000 injections of pigment over a 7-15 year period to keep it all going providing it even looked normal at year 15 at a cost that could possibly range from $20,000-$45,000? When one starts thinking long term it starts to not make much sense and some just need others to point that out to them as their vision truly is clouded with desperation. Those considering it should maybe give the whole idea more thought just observe for few years.


Yes the dollar figure is good for the promoters long term especially when you start multiplying that with a large pool of customers so I do understand the push back and I don't take it personally.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I don't think those that promote this care as much about the customer as they do about the money. I know this might seem odd in the hair loss business but I think it might be a possibility.

 

[Coopman]

Topcat

In respect of the ink getting into the lymphatic system, it cant be good for the body. The build up in the body organs over a period of time could lead to unknown effects on the individuals health. Clinics must be open on the ingredients that form the ink and not state its an industry secret.

My knowledge on toxins within the body is very little. However i aware of many people whom have been diagnosed with neurological disorders (mnd/als, parkinsons, Ms) have had their mercury fillings removed from their teeth. However that has not halted the disease in its tracks. Once something has started it cant be stopped. Did the mercury cause the disease, no. But was it a contributory factor? Who knows.

There are a lot of American Footballers and Rugby players getting diagnosed with Mnd/Als. The correlation is above normal parameters. A question could be asked "Would they have got Mnd/Als had they never played Rugby/American Football. Was it the body trauma that eventually led to the disease taking hold? We will never know.

When some clinics refuse to detail what is in the ink. I believe some Clinics do make it available. Some have stated that they do not want their competitors knowing how its made. Is it really that big a deal for the Clinic? Would it not be the skill and expertise of the Tattooist? There is a big difference in respect to a light and slightly harder touch of the needle.

If you are having over 10 treatments over 30 years. When does the quality of the work breakdown? If you have a better Tattooist with a lighter touch I assume it should look better for longer. But not everyone is going to have that top notch Tattooist. As you stated Topcat in 10-15 years time the truth will be out there.