Questions, concerns about hair clinics

[PatCS]

Hello all. I've been following some the online hair communities off and on for about six months now. Some of the results I am impressed with. Others not so much. Regardless it seems to me that the technology is now at a place where I can get the result I want. I've impressed with Shapiro Medical, Hasson and Wong Medical, Dr. Bisanga, Dr. Dorin and Dr. Rahal. I'm also seeing some other names on this community that i had not seen before --arving, mwamba and others--and I think they might be worth exploring too. The reason for my post here is that a creditiable sourse told me that many other of the communities are very rigged in favor of certain doctors. This person said this forum was one of the more honest and real forums. So I just want to put myself out there to you and I guess get some feedback. I want to sure that these higher end clinics are who they say they are and are being real with the results they are presenting. I'm not squeemish about the cost but I want to be sure that I get what I'm paying for. I'm a realist and I know that not all surgery results turn out exactly as planned but I would want to be in the hands of clinic where if on the off chance something when wrong, they would make it right.

I'm mainly looking for a clinic with an ethical business model that treats people like patients and human beings. And I would hope for a result that mainly resembles the before and after pictures from that clinic. I get the impression that some people think the whole industry is scammy. I cannot imagine that is true...that it is all a scam? In other words, some clinics must be doing great work and doing great by their patients. But I want to be sure I am not deluding myself because I want to get my hair back.

Thought I would put my concerns out there in case any veretan patients have words of wisdom or other ideas.

Thanks in a advance,

Pat

 

[Westcoaster]

All the forums are good advice platforms although you got to read between the lines sometimes, I hang out here and one other forum which I prefer. The more info available whilst you research is a good thing; even if some of it is over pushed.

 

[topccat29]

So much could be written on just this one topic alone it could fill a book. To sum it up though the longer you can wait and the more information you can take in over that time the more you reduce your risk and lessen your chance for making a poor decision.

What works against the patient is their desperation to do something now and what works for many of the clinics is that very same desperation.

What also works against the patient is the shame and embarrassment of the issue itself. Unless you are willing to meet people and figure out who is full of sh*t and who is not this also works against you. Who is this person giving you advice and where are they coming from. Information systems in general are easily corrupted. Once one becomes aware of this they understand the importance of further research and verifying the research through several sources. There are plenty of 20 somethings on these forums who have never had a procedure in their life giving advice on who to go to, unfortunately most of them don €™t know jacksh*t.

Is the industry scammy €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦.sure €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦. anytime you combine desperate customers with those that desire more wealth you are going to have many who will take advantage of others. Many will set up their fishing poles where they know all the fish are at.

Are you always going to get straight advice on the forums €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦..I agree sometimes you have to read between the lines. No one wants to take responsibility for what happens to you and on the same token if you pick a clinic that many might believe is a poor choice don €™t expect too much outcry as no one wants to be sued simply for trying to help another avoid distress and pain.

Some of the worst clinics are able to control their poor results through intimidation and lawsuits. But every once in a while someone has a huge set of balls and comes on to the forum and tells everyone what the real deal is. You need to be able to catch those postings and threads before those forums close them down and they are lost to history and only the lucky few got to chance to read them.

So yes you do need to read between the lines. Why would a forum close down a thread on a bad result? I have never seen that happen with a good result. Why would a select group of so called former patients attack the patient like a pack of rabid dogs for posting what is obviously hideous work? Does this even make any sense. In the end you really need to figure it all out for yourself.

 

[PatCS]

Thanks for your inputs, westcoaster and topccat!
Pat

 

[Coopman]

Topcat. Could'nt agree more in respect of your statement "some of the worst clinics are able to control their poor results through intimidation and lawsuits".

Im a reasonably intelligent individual and even after a year of intense researching, Surgeons that i considered competent (purely from their online results posted on forums) had a few horror stories that were/are carefully concealed.

 

[PatCS]

Coopman,
I'm wondering how you got that information? Was it just a matter of privately emailing patients or something where they were empowered to talk more freely?

I understand sometimes surgeries don't turn out well, but I'm interested to know how clinics deal with it. I hope that the better clinics really place patient welfare high on their priority list and correct things if they need correcting.

 

[Coopman]

PatCS

I have spent 10+ years on Internet forums/websites in respect of hairloss and approx 2yrs researching hair transplants.
I have not yet had a HT so can not comment in respect of that experience.

The main things i have witnessed are threads and posts that dissapear, you have to form your opinion as to why. It could be because the results were evidently poor or because the original thread poster requested that the thread be removed as he was trying to reach an agreement with his Surgeon to offer a free treatment/or to refund money.

It is not uncommon for forums to delete threads/posts under legal pressure.

It is not uncommon for forums to ban members from their sites. Sometimes these members are HT veterans whom have had several procedures (good and bad).

If you look on this forum and see a patient whom has not had a reasonably satisfactory result. You will almost definitely see a response from the Clinic. Top clinics will offer a refund/partial refund or free procedure. This is almost definitely the most honest forum i have seen by the way.

The last thing i have noticed is the ethics of a particular HT surgeon. I have seen many threads in the past of guys in their early 20s whom have had 3000+ grafts in their temples/hairline densely packed to such an extent that their hairline is probably slightly lower than what it was pre balding. These threads worry me particulary as although their hair may look good for the next 2 years, no plan of action has been made to take account of further loss. But there is a flip side to this argument. The patient may be less than truthful to a Surgeon, by stating nobody in his family has gone further than a NW5. All males start balding in their teens and stops by the time they reach their mid 20s when they are NW5. They have been on FIN for 2years and it has stopped further loss.
A good ethical surgeon learns how to spot this Bulls*it.

Only my opinions.

 

[topccat29]

I think that if you look at the majority of the market when it comes to hairloss the sweet spot is between 20-30 years of age. The younger the person the more insecure they are generally speaking. Is that going to get me a lot of fan mail probably not but sometimes the truth hurts a little. Can you convince someone in that age group about avoiding risky behavior, for the most part no, so of course that makes them very easy targets.

Was I insecure at 23, I would like to think that I was not but in reality I guess when it came to that minimal amount of hair loss I had , I in fact was insecure. I mean to keep looking at that same ad over and over thinking I should do this obviously something was going on in my head. Much like the forums many young guys keep coming back over and over to look at the great results and only the great results giving them a slanted view which makes for a poor decision.

One thing I can say is that after this guy President Puig butchered up my head I was not only ashamed but I was afraid €¦ €¦ €¦..what was I going to do now. On the occasion that I do get to meet young guys going through the same thing having had bad work they are mostly afraid. They are afraid for their future and what they are going to do now. So I guess although I am hard on many of these guys for not posting about it so that others can avoid the same I can understand it. It €™s not easy especially at that age.

The most vocal are probably going to be older patients that have more life experience and since that is not the sweet spot for the market their numbers will be very small. Even I have not posted full face photos, it €™s embarrassing almost like saying yes I am a stupid person. When in hindsight it was only lack of life experience. Eventually I will post full face photos when the time is right.

Of course there is some very good work being performed by ethical clinics but in my opinion that number is so small, how does one figure it out. I mean they €™re all nice guys just wanting to help you out but the fact is many of them are of questionable character.

No easy answer here but I believe you need to meet actual patients or read the postings of actual patients that tell you as much about themselves and post as many pictures as possible. The reason being is that the number of posters who post with recommendations are not even patients and many in fact work for the industry but pretend to be just disinterested 3[sup]rd[/sup] parties trying to help. That is just the way it works sometimes, is it legal of course not. Eventually a pattern emerges and it €™s easy to spot but that can only come with daily readings of the various forums and watching events as they unfold.
I try to post as much about myself as possible so that others know that I am a real person and they are always welcome to meet me. For me it really is not about directing anyone to any specific clinic but more about how much of the industry operates and what to look for. There are so many small things that many fail to pick up on and those exactly where there focus should be.

If you are going to use the forums you need to read as many postings as possible everyday to pick up on patterns. For instance I mentioned this guy that just got his head butchered and then attacked by 3-4 patients of that same clinic €¦ €¦ €¦..very odd. Then the thread was closed which is the normal modus operadi. Damage control comes in when another unknowing patient walks into the forum and a moderator specifically recommends that same doctor to someone that missed the car wreck. This is exactly where the original patient that got butchered should be focusing his attention because the real crime is in the subtle manipulation of information that someone would use for a medical decision.

Honest clinics and forums do not need to resort to these types of tactics because in the long run it €™s bad for everyone.

 

[topccat29]

Here is what you really need to know and I will give you a perfect example. Look up Carlos Puig on Youtube. Now watch him very closely €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦.he seems like a really nice, soft spoken person surely he must be a good guy. But if you look at his past and sites such as the hair transplant industry is a disgrace you would walk away with a totally different point of view. This represents over 90% of the industry in my opinion including several of the forums. All nice guys just wanting to help you out but the fact is that would be a lie.

So how do you figure it out, it can only achieved with time and you must meet people. If you can €™t do that I strongly suggest not having a hair transplant.

I am posting 2 photos below one right before what I thought was just adding a few hairs to my temple and then a picture which is an example of what was placed in my hairline that was perfectly natural looking before I was disfigured. Now ask yourself could you possibly do this to another human being €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦now you understand what it is you are dealing with here. 90% of them are strictly in it for the money and they don €™t care how they make it. It €™s about making as much as possible as fast as you can and for most the patients just become a blur.

I read a post recently from first time poster, his one and only post comparing 3 clinics. The last clinic was the one that saved him and recommended him not to have any work €¦ €¦ €¦..wow this doctor must really be a good guy. But if you knew the doctor €™s history and what has been posted about him you would think differently. In my opinion it is a complete bullshit post to boost up that clinic €™s image as so much damage has been done that business has severely tapered off regardless of what the post would lead you to believe. Question everything, read the history, meet people in person.

If you think the game has changed because it €™s 2013 you are wrong. Please don €™t let me meet you in person and have me say I tried to warn you.

 

[mg42]

Topcat

you are writing some good stuff but please remember it is not easy for patient to come out on forums and talk about their negative experience.

Clinics DO threaten such patients with legal action, YES, even this so called reputable clinics/doctors do that. How you avoid that, you cant, they could easily sue you for defamation and slander.
If you take them to court it will be almost impossible to find willing doctor to be 'expert witness' as they cover each others back, even if you had the worst HT doctors simply dont want to get involved and you are out of luck.

In nutshell, you can't talk about bad result (you get sued) and if you take launch legal action chances are no other doctor will want to get involved and it will fail

whats solution

 

[topccat29]

Oh €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦I have a solution €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦..but I will leave it at that €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦lol €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦

Mg I would agree with what you have written 100%. Usually the patients that do come forward are older more mature men and since they probably have researched better and more importantly have more life experience they are less likely to find themselves in a position where they have been damaged because they didn €™t have enough information.

Most young guys will not even post pictures with their face concealed during the research process so one cannot expect them to come back to help others and most especially when things go wrong. They are just in it for themselves which is understandable but it also works against them as much of the information they are getting is from other young guys €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦.lol €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦..it €™s kind of funny to watch sometimes €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦but the reality is sad.

The problem with forums that like to manipulate information is that it is illegal and as I have written plenty of people are sitting in jail for it most recently Kevin Trudeau with a $36M judgment against him others are serving 20+ year terms and that is not an exaggeration. So maybe the focus needs to be redirected.

I don €™t like to come off as being so negative as there are honest people that work in the industry the problem seems to be that they need to work within this system and their numbers are few.
The fact that Puig is currently the president of one of these so called professional organizations speaks volumes. All one needs to do is research his past then when would need to ask how is this even possible. If this is possible then one needs to start questioning everything they are seeing and hearing regardless of how professional many would like their image to appear. Because for many it's just an image of authority, knowledge, etc that they work on honing.

The FTC regulations are very specific such as.

The representation, omission, or practice must be a "material" one. The basic question is whether the act or practice is likely to affect the consumer's conduct or decision with regard to a product or service. If so, the practice is material, and consumer injury is likely, because consumers are likely to have chosen differently but for the deception. In many instances, materiality, and hence injury, can be presumed from the nature of the practice. In other instances, evidence of materiality may be necessary.

Thus, the Commission will find deception if there is a representation, omission or practice that is likely to mislead the consumer acting reasonably in the circumstances, to the consumer's detriment.

So when I see a forum lock a thread do to all the negative publicity and then go on to recommend that same doctor in another thread several days later to an unsuspecting reader..................it's illegal.

 

[topccat29]

It also helps to go back and research the posters themselves. If a poster has a ton of posts in a very short period of time with not much substance that might be a clue. What exactly do there posts have to say. If someone has been listed as a poster for a long time once again go back at look at what they posted does it all add up.
If a poster has never had a procedure in their life and does not openly state they work for a clinic yet freely make recommendations..........hmmm might be another clue.
Sometimes one needs to break away from the showcase results and look at more.
Maybe some of this means absolutely nothing but then again you might be asking who is this person and why is he posting.

 

[mg42]

Forums are poor way of doing research simply because forums are sponsored by clinics and there will always be bias, forum owners will not allow anything which goes against their paying clients. If they have to chose between some Mr Joe NW6 who had horrible result and clinic who pays them 1000s of dollars a year then you know which side they gonna side with, by default $$ always win.

Ive seen unfavorable posts get deleted, posters get banned just like it happened yesterday on HS forum, guy got banned because he was questioning clearly photoshopped images posted by this indian doc, he is one of the sponsors after all.

Its very hard for newbie who just signs up to get objective information when information in controlled by certain interests, we just see what they want us to see and thers a lot of money in this industry to be made.

Hair transplant industry is thriving on insecurities of desperate men and men who had bad results are suffering emotionally and financially, coming out on forums will get you banned and clinic can easily sue you or threaten to sue you which in most cases will be enough to shut you up.

We need sponsor free platform where anything goes, good and bad not just good.

 

[topccat29]

Yes MG much of what you have written is true and it should be no surprise that I have been banned from HS along with another forum.

I think there might be some better ideas they just not have happened as of yet.

I know many in the industry don €™t like to read these types of posts and it can often be considered negative but the fact of the matter is that it is very positive for the patient and that is what really matters.

That thread I mentioned that was locked, many know which one I am referring to as the patient was attacked by patients of that very clinics which of course in itself is very bizarre behavior especially when they all consider themselves repair patients. In fact one of the a-holes has been fond of posting in Latin over the last ten years €œit speaks for itself € in a way that tries to discredit the patient coming forward. It all gets old after a while, eventually people figure out what they are about at least those paying attention.

But that moderator that went on to recommend that same clinic to another unsuspecting poster several days later €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦.that €™s the real problem and that is where the focus should be directed and it can be done very easily.

Those in the industry that are familiar with the thread of which I speak. Go back and look at those pictures of that bizarre hairline the one the patient saw when he came out of his drug induced stupor. Now look again specifically at the photos that show his eyes several days maybe even weeks post op. They are wide opened, glassy red eyes. I hesitated for a moment when I saw those eyes and didn €™t realize it until just now. I hesitated because I know those eyes those are the eyes of shock and fear of what they are looking at in the mirror, almost a surreal experience for the person who possesses those eyes. I know because I had those eyes a long time ago and it was due to the President of one of your prestigious organizations that make many sound very professional. Does that person who now has the same eyes I had deserve what he now has to deal with simply because he didn €™t have enough information or because many feel the need to hide the information €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦..no and that is why it is all illegal to be doing and why in fact the moderator that is manipulating the information should be the one to pay the heaviest price.

 

[topccat29]

Maybe one last example for this thread as it would seem important so I will do you a favor a big favor and take the time my own time to explain something to you otherwise like many you will just wander around the forums not really understanding what they are seeing.

This doctor I mentioned that had a patient come forward recently that was completely distraught. That wrote how he was threatened with lawsuits for telling his story on a public forum and actually taking the time to show others the bizarre pictures. That patient who had his thread closed down and then several days later one could watch the moderator recommend that same doctor to an unsuspecting reader who was new. Then after I wrote about it another thread seemed to appear immediately by a new poster with only 1 post asking for a comparison of 3 doctors including this same doctor and only this moderator replied as if setting up a situation where he could deflect his previous recommendation which seemed to be a favor at damage control you know so he can €™t be sued.

These guys that attacked that patient who seem to work for the clinic and have had the same modus operandi for the last 10 years. They are now posting on a completely different forum where a long time repair patient has asked about the clinic. These guys are there to cheer this guy on and tell him about how great it €™s all going to be. Will anyone warn this repair patient of the recent revelations €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦well don €™t expect anyone in the industry to do it as it is both unprofessional and unethical. Could I warn him €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦sure but of course I risk being attacked yet once again and very well could be banned from yet another forum. So maybe this guy since he is a repair patient and has been around long enough €¦ €¦..maybe he deserves what he might end up getting €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦.I hope it works out for him but inside I have a very sick feeling for him €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦.he is on his own and that my friend sums it all up. You are on your own and hopefully you take a very long time and are very sure of your decision because many of these guys in this business are scumbags.

They are not men at all and wouldn €™t even know what it is to be a man or do a man €™s work so instead they do this, go around and take advantage of desperate balding guys to make a few bucks without a care of what happens to them down the line.


These guys associated with that clinic will keep a low profile and refrain from posting on the forum where they attacked the patient until it all blows over in a few months. They will just look for new hunting grounds in the mean time. Honest guys don't need to wait until things blow over but that is not the case here.

 

[Boberto]

This forum is great and the only transparent and honest forum out there. Big mac should be commended for his efforts.

I dont read any of the others any more as they are a rigged farce and it just so annoying to read the BS continually posted.

Well done for discovering this early in your journey. Or kudos to your credibile source.

 

[ziggs11]

Agreed, this might not be the most dynamic of the forums, but its got experienced level-headed posters who have seen both the good and the bad and donate their time to educate newbs like me.

The other forums are outright unreadable. You can sense how desperate some guys are when you read through any thread about hair multiplication. Kind of depressing.

 

[topccat29]

The bottom line is this. Bad surgery including hair transplants is not illegal. But manipulating information and being deceptive in commerce is very illegal in fact it is a widely prosecuted Federal Crime. So these guys that seem to be complaining on the very forums where they have been damaged and their threads are shut down are often wasting their time with the unethical, unskilled doctors. The crime is in the deceptive information they got from the same forum and when it is in fact prosecuted those doing it lose every penny that they have made and more, while the jail sentences average 20 years €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦..

Some of these guys really must think they are untouchable after they have made $20-30 million but it can all easily go bye bye. Unless they can hide that money like the recent Kevin Trudeau case it can all be easily taken away but hen you end up sitting in jail and that is only a civil case. When one considers this has all been going on for well over a decade then RICO laws easily come into play and triple damage are impossible to pay back.

What €™s really funny about it all is when you have a group of dishonest individuals working together it €™s their nature to sell out the other guy to save their own hide €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦..all part of the deal.

 

[mg42]

topccat29 wrote:

Yes MG much of what you have written is true and it should be no surprise that I have been banned from HS along with another forum.

I think there might be some better ideas they just not have happened as of yet.

I know many in the industry don €™t like to read these types of posts and it can often be considered negative but the fact of the matter is that it is very positive for the patient and that is what really matters.

That thread I mentioned that was locked, many know which one I am referring to as the patient was attacked by patients of that very clinics which of course in itself is very bizarre behavior especially when they all consider themselves repair patients. In fact one of the a-holes has been fond of posting in Latin over the last ten years €œit speaks for itself € in a way that tries to discredit the patient coming forward. It all gets old after a while, eventually people figure out what they are about at least those paying attention.

But that moderator that went on to recommend that same clinic to another unsuspecting poster several days later €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦.that €™s the real problem and that is where the focus should be directed and it can be done very easily.

Those in the industry that are familiar with the thread of which I speak. Go back and look at those pictures of that bizarre hairline the one the patient saw when he came out of his drug induced stupor. Now look again specifically at the photos that show his eyes several days maybe even weeks post op. They are wide opened, glassy red eyes. I hesitated for a moment when I saw those eyes and didn €™t realize it until just now. I hesitated because I know those eyes those are the eyes of shock and fear of what they are looking at in the mirror, almost a surreal experience for the person who possesses those eyes. I know because I had those eyes a long time ago and it was due to the President of one of your prestigious organizations that make many sound very professional. Does that person who now has the same eyes I had deserve what he now has to deal with simply because he didn €™t have enough information or because many feel the need to hide the information €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦..no and that is why it is all illegal to be doing and why in fact the moderator that is manipulating the information should be the one to pay the heaviest price.

Where to find this thread or pictures?

 

[topccat29]

MG posting this type of information I think is very valuable but I would also add that sometimes I think it €™s unfair for me to even post what I post here as it comes off as being negative. I consider this an honest forum and that is in fact why I can post it so I try to limit it but there is always so much to say.

It wouldn €™t be right for me to start posting links to other forums. But I what I would say is that anyone that is going to use the forums as a tool for research, needs to read each and every forum everyday as it is very easy to miss the most valuable post the one you really need to see. You can also compare the different forums with each other on how they operate. Being banned from a forum in early 2000 was eye opening for me as the information I posted was completely honest which was a big clue.

Of course I do not need to research but I find this all educational and useful in other ways and at times entertaining. I in fact make fun of much of what I see as it often seems so bizarre when one really thinks about it. And yes sometimes I €™m a real prick about it but when you are dealing with pricks sometimes they needed to be treated the same way.

As far as the previous comment on the desperate guys, I can't help but feel sorry for them. What got me into trouble was desperation but desperation for a different reason. I just wanted to fix the damage that was done to my head and it became a life long journey...............a complete waste of time and energy because of a few scumbags....................but also a valuable learning experience.
If those young guys could understand their desperation they would make better decisions all it takes is to pick up a half dozen good books.