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Why Robotic FUE is bad for the HT industry.

topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Is anyone here familiar with the name Arthur Jones? He is the man behind the Nautilus line of exercise equipment that was very popular in the 70 €™s and 80 €™s. How he became a multi millionaire selling his equipment is an interesting story as I can see some comparisons with the fue robot.

With a tremendous sense of drive and determination he was able to convince key people that his form of training using his machines was far superior to anything else that was currently available. He just made shit up, phrases like Actively Accelerated Eccentrics, Actively Accelerated Ballisitics, Explosive Isometric Tension, Explosive Ballistic Tension, etc. Yes it all sounds like exciting stuff but in reality it was just hype and crap. Meanwhile he was fighting it out behind the scenes with competitors Universal, Paramount and others. Someone was suing someone at any given moment for market share so that the public could be conned into believing something that was in fact inferior was superior.

But here is the thing what really worked is what was working for years before that which already had established proof of concept with thousands upon thousands of results and it wasn €™t what they were selling. It couldn €™t be patented so there really wasn €™t much to sell.

I worked for the Health and Tennis Corp of America which eventually became Ballys in 1979. I was certified in exercise instruction by Dr. Paul Ward and he refused to let the Nautilus line into the facilities because he knew that in fact it was crap. Several years later he was forced to yield as the company had gained such a foothold in convincing the public that the tide was just too great to fight. Where is the line of equipment now, nowhere as it was crap and much of the public has discovered newer better ways to achieve results and guess what they are those original concepts that had proven results years ago. It €™s not new it €™s what actually worked the best.

I think those that adopt the robot will end up completely destroying their own business while bringing the ht industry to a new low as every person that hangs up a shingle will all of a sudden be a fue expert. So when that guys puts his arm around your shoulder at that conference and tells you hey we got to get one of these babies in your clinics he is laughing at you and he will be the one making the money as he holds the patent to the punches or he owns a stake in the company and your business becomes not only a commodity but a poor option for patients.

He is helping you destroy your own business if you already offer fue by convincing you that the skill is meaningless and you need the robot or if you offer strip that his robot result will be better. It does make me laugh but hey maybe I €™m wrong, just an observation.
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
If it takes hold the robot that is and the mfg can convince the public that it is better which I believe it is not than the procedure becomes a commodity and one competes on price. The only person that gets rich is the mfg and the guy holding the patent.

It would be no different than Picasso or Rembrandt buying a computer that prints artwork and telling the public that it is the same. That their hands mean nothing. Any clinic that does that is only hurting themselves if they in fact truly have talent.............I don't know maybe they have doubts which I can also understand.

Maybe that seat in 100% genuine leather, that's a hard selling point to resist. Just like sitting in a new car that smell gets them all the time.
 
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topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
After viewing some recent mega sessions with the robot I was amazed at the bloody mess I was looking at, how can this even be happening.

I read a few articles several months ago on surgical robotics and the press was not good, didn't bother to post it though. What was interesting and uncovered was that the sales people were playing one hospital off on another to get their equipment in and boost the numbers. It seems to me the same has happened when it comes to hair transplantation. Get their foot into the door of some of the well known clinics than use that as a selling tactic playing one clinic off on another while and the same time driving in more traffic with the unknown clinics.

I think the unknowns will help bury the industry in a few years as all these decimated donor areas become synonymous with fue. Nice play for the manufacturer though.

Could easily help destroy the first adopters............now wouldn't that be poetic justice.
 
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topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Actually the article was just last month so fairly recent. What is interesting for me is kind of guessing what is going to happen from my own experiences and then actually see some of it happening. Nobody can help those patients as I'm sure the information they have is just direct marketing. My jaw just dropped when I saw that robotic mega session. You can always kind of get a good idea when you see a bloody mess just post op. Here is that article from October.
The point is it's about marketing and has zero to do with advancements for the patient or better care at least in my opinion.
Robot Surgery Damaging Patients Rises With Marketing
By Robert Langreth - Oct 7, 2013 11:00 PM CT

BSIP/UIG via Getty Images
In robot-assisted surgery, a physician sits at a video-game-style console away from the patient and peers into a high-definition display. Foot pedals and hand controls maneuver mechanical arms equipped with tools, guided by a 3-D camera.


Porter Adventist Hospital in Denver announced last year that Warren Kortz, a general surgeon on the medical staff, was the first in the Rocky Mountain region to use a technique known as robotic surgery to remove gall bladders through one incision in the belly button.


The operation, performed while the doctor sits at a video-game-like console, was €œtaking advantage of another breakthrough in robotic surgery € and is €œeasier on the patient, € the hospital said in a press release.


€œIt €™s Star Wars stuff, € Kortz was quoted as saying in another article put out by the hospital touting another operation, robot-assisted parathyroid surgery, in 2010. €œMy prediction is it will eventually replace everything else. €


What the hospital and Kortz didn €™t reveal was the risk. Even as Kortz promoted robotic surgery, 10 patients he treated suffered injuries or complications between 2008 and 2011, according to an April complaint by the Colorado Medical Board. Five had arteries punctured or torn. Objects were temporarily left inside two, and others had nerve damage. One died and another needed cardiopulmonary resuscitation. The complaint charges Kortz with 14 counts of unprofessional conduct, including sometimes not advising patients on alternatives to the robot.


March: Robosurgery Suits Detail Injuries as Death Reports Rise


Robotic surgeries are on the rise, fueled by aggressive marketing by doctors, hospitals and Intuitive Surgical Inc. (ISRG), which manufactures the $1.5 million robot. Advertising on hospital and doctor websites, YouTube videos, billboards, and on radio and television has hyped the advantages of robotic surgeries, often claimed fewer complications without proof, and ignored contradictory studies finding no advantage in some cases.


Not Proven
Robot operations haven €™t been proven in randomized trials to offer significant health benefits compared to standard, less-invasive surgery and multiple studies show they can cost thousands of dollars more.


U.S. hospitals used robot-assisted surgery in more than 350,000 operations last year, a 60 percent jump since 2010. Robotic surgery is used to perform hysterectomies, gall bladder removals, prostate cancer treatment, heart valve operations, and many other soft tissue operations. And half of general surgeons plan to add robotic systems within two years in response to general demand, according to a JPMorgan Chase & Co. survey reported Oct. 3.


€œIf there was a Nobel Prize for marketing, it would go to Intuitive Surgical, € said John Mulhall, an urologist at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York, which performs prostate cancer surgery with and without the robot.


FDA Flaws
The rise of Intuitive €™s robot surgery also shows flaws in how the U.S. Food and Drug Administration regulates the marketing of medical devices, which includes everything from radiation therapy machines to implanted devices such as artificial hips and cardiac defibrillators to drug infusion pumps to surgical instruments and surgical robots.


The FDA has just two full-time employees dedicated to evaluating medical device ads, including those involving robotic surgery, compared with a full office of more than 60 people watching over prescription drug promotion.


The complexity of medical devices makes safety and efficacy claims hard to evaluate, creating an environment ripe for misleading advertising, including by hospitals, said Robert Steinbuch, a professor of law at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock. €œHospital advertising is essentially a free-for-all, € he said.


70 Deaths
Bloomberg News reported in February that the FDA was surveying surgeons about the robots after an increase in reported adverse events, including 70 deaths since 2009. Reports of injuries linked to robotic surgery have more than doubled in the first eight months of this year, based on when the reports were received by the FDA, compared with the same period last year.


Intuitive Surgical says looking at reporting dates, rather than the dates the incidents occurred, €œis likely to seriously misrepresent the true performance of a device. €


While Porter Adventist Hospital cannot comment on the Kortz cases due to privacy laws, safety is its top priority and it responds €œwith swift and immediate action € to clinical concerns, saidThomas Drake, chief medical officer for the hospital, in a statement. €œOur approach to robotic surgery marketing is focused on consumer awareness, € Drake said.


Warning Letter
In July, the FDA issued a warning letter to Intuitive Surgical after an inspection found the company hadn €™t adequately reported device corrections and patient adverse events in some cases. Sales growth slowed in the second quarter on a decline in robot system sales. Since the first Bloomberg report in February, Intuitive Surgical €™s shares have fallen 34 percent to $380.99.


€œThe marketing material that Intuitive puts out is fair and balanced, € said Myriam Curet, chief medical adviser for Intuitive Surgical. The company has €œa robust program where we review all of the marketing material that goes out and we make sure that discussions of alternative procedures are on the marketing materials as well as discussions about risks, € she said.


Intuitive Surgical follows regulatory guidance in every market in which it operates, said Angela Wonson, a spokeswoman for the company. It also continually evaluates and updates the informational materials it provides to medical professionals and the public to ensure they reflect recent research, she said.


€œUltimately, decisions about treatment must be made between the surgeon and the patient during the informed consent process, € Wonson said.


Doctor Proposed
Teresa Hershey, 41, of Bermuda Dunes, California, said she knew nothing about robotic surgery when her doctor proposed it as an alternative to standard hysterectomy.


€œIt sounded good. She sold me on it, € recalls Hershey, who was impressed with videos on YouTube emphasizing the precision of the robot arms.


Her 2010 operation turned out to be anything but accurate. Doctors punctured her bowel during the procedure, a problem that wasn €™t discovered until she had been hospitalized in severe pain for nine days, she said. It took nine operations to fix the problem, keeping her in the hospital for months over multiple stays, and racking up almost $1 million in medical bills that were paid by her insurance.


€œThey are deceiving people, € said Hershey, referring to the rosy marketing by doctors and the company. €œPeople don €™t hear the cons they only hear the pros. €


Didn €™t Mention
A brochure her doctor gave her didn €™t mention that the same less-invasive hysterectomy can be done through small incisions without the robot using a laparoscope, Hershey said. She plans to sue Intuitive Surgical, she said.


Desert Regional Medical Center, where Hershey was treated, puts its marketing materials €œthrough a stringent marketing and advertising review process prior to publication, € Richard A. Ramhoff, a spokesman for the hospital, said in an e-mail.


€œOur website, where we feature our robotic surgery offerings, explains that all surgical procedures, including those with robotic options, have risks and benefits, € Ramhoff said.


As a surgeon herself, Curet said she €œwould never expect a patient to depend on marketing material in terms of making their informed consent. € Wonson said the company has updated language in its newer brochures, which include laparoscopic hysterectomy.


Intuitive Surgical is particularly aggressive in its marketing to hospitals, say doctors and hospital officials.


Sales Pitches
Peter Dunn, executive medical director for perioperative services at Massachusetts General Hospital, said sales representatives for Intuitive Surgical €œwere constantly coming in € with pitches for how the Boston-based hospital could form a partnership with the company, either providing robot training or by holding symposiums on robot surgery or advertising the benefits of the robot.


€œThey would go to any avenue they could to infiltrate Mass General, € said Dunn, who declined the partnership. €œWe absolutely refused. € The company €™s marketing €œhas pushed the limits of truth, € he said. Mass General uses the robot sparingly for urology and gynecology procedures, he said.


Robotic surgery grew out of the U.S. military €™s attempts in the late 1980s to design remote-control devices that would enable surgeons at military bases far away from the battlefield to treat wounded soldiers. Intuitive Surgical €™s robot was cleared for use by the FDA in 2000.


High-Definition Display
In robot-assisted surgery, a physician sits at a video-game-style console several feet from the patient and peers into a high-definition display. Foot pedals and hand controls maneuver mechanical arms equipped with tools, guided by a 3-D camera that shows the work as it is done inside a patient. This differs from other minimally-invasive operations in which doctors stand over the patient and manually manipulate instruments and a tiny camera through multiple small incisions.


When a hospital got a robot, Intuitive Surgical provided an extensive marketing kit with everything from material for radio spots to television clips to Web pages the hospital can use in its marketing, said Peter Carnegie, a former Intuitive Surgical cardiothoracic program development manager, who left in 2010 and now provides consulting services for hospitals on complex robotic surgery.


For hospitals, the €œprimary investment value € of the robot €œis growing the hospital €™s market share with new surgical referrals, € wrote Ryan Rhodes, an Intuitive executive, and a colleague in a chapter on the economics of robotic surgery in a 2008 book.


Attract Patients
The robot €œcan attract new patients, new referrals, and new hospital revenue, € they wrote. €œWe can provide marketing support, including source files for a variety of promotional materials, and we work with hospital and practice marketing staff to coordinate promotional events. €


Marketing materials for robotic hysterectomy often has contained €œcherry-picked and very misleading information, € said Barbara Levy, vice president for health policy at the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. A September 2012 study by researchers atColumbia University revealed that 44 percent of hospital websites touted robot gynecology surgery, yet only 1.6 percent of the sites mentioned potential complications of the operation.


Websites for hospitals doing robotic prostate surgery often have contained unproven claims of superiority in erectile dysfunction, a study by researchers at Memorial Sloan-Kettering found. In addition, many sites had €œgeneric information copied directly from the website of Intuitive Surgical, € the study, published in 2010, found.


€˜Overestimate Benefits €™
A 2011 study by doctors at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine also found that 164 hospital robot-surgery websites surveyed €œoverestimate benefits, largely ignore risks and are strongly influenced by the manufacturer, € according to research in the Journal for Healthcare Quality.


Curet, of Intuitive Surgical, said the study tried to pass judgment on robotic surgery marketing without comparing it to hospital marketing for other devices.


The FDA is €œespecially weak when it comes to regulating ads for medical devices, € said Diana Zuckerman, president of the National Research Center for Women & Families in Washington.


The FDA is working on a reorganization to increase the number of staff members working on device promotion, and others on limited details are helping in the meantime, said Synim Rivers, a spokeswoman for the agency, in an e-mail.


Intuitive Surgical €œlike any other medical device manufacturer, provides clinically-supported marketing materials to its customers, € Wonson said in an e-mail. It cannot control how hospitals market the device, she said.


Aggressive Reps
The company €™s sales representatives are especially aggressive in marketing the gadget, say former employees and hospital executives.


The sales reps were €œmasterful at being very aggressive € in playing a hospital off against its local rivals to get them to purchase a robot, said Carnegie, the former Intuitive Surgical program manager.


€œThey used every ounce of leverage they had in that monopoly to pressure hospitals into purchasing, € Carnegie said.


Once a hospital had one robot, sales people were €œtrained to drive conflicts € between surgeons so they would start squabbling over who got to use the robot at popular times, Carnegie said. If enough prominent doctors started complaining that they couldn €™t schedule robot operations, hospital administrators might have little choice to buy another, he said.


€˜Monstrous Leap €™
Intuitive Surgical has €œgreat technology € that is €œa monstrous leap € over what was available before, said Carnegie, who remains €œvery positive on the technology. € While the tactics were aggressive, €œthere is nothing ethically wrong with what they have done when you look at it from a business perspective, € he said.


One time, a sales manager visited Dunn, at Massachusetts General, saying that a senior gynecologist couldn €™t get enough operating time on the hospital €™s robot, Dunn said. That claim turned out to be incorrect, Dunn said.


Another time, a sales representative told one of his staff surgeons that training on the robot was only worthwhile if the doctor performed a certain number of cases, Dunn said.


Paul MacKoul, director of minimally invasive gynecology surgery at Holy Cross Hospital in Silver Spring, Maryland, has done thousands of minimally invasive operations, and can perform a hysterectomy without the robotic system through two small incisions in just 45 minutes.


Losing Business
In 2011, he says he started losing business to gynecologists with more limited experience in less-invasive operations who had previously referred patients to him. They were keeping the patients for themselves by adopting the robot, even though the robot operations had more incisions than what he does, he said.


€œThe marketing has been genius, € MacKoul said. €œYou €™d be surprised how many patients think the robot operates on the patient, not the doctor, and it is very sophisticated and precise and that is why it is better. €


In gynecology, the company €œcame in and convinced surgeons this new technology is going to take over the market, € said Wendel Naumann, a gynecologic surgeon, at Levine Cancer Institute in Charlotte, North Carolina. €œLearn to do this or you can get left behind. € He no longer uses the robot because €œit really didn €™t add anything. €


Intuitive Surgical €™s Curet said that many studies have found that on the robot, surgeons are less likely to run into difficulties that would require them to convert to traditional large incisions, compared with surgeons using standard less invasive methods.


Brings Value
€œWhere the robot brings value is when you get into more complex procedures € that cannot be done with standard less invasive methods, Curet said. €œYou are taking a patient who would otherwise have a large incision and now operating minimally invasively. €


Curet said that while randomized, controlled trials comparing surgical techniques are infrequently done, analyses of large patient databases €œhave shown a definitive advantage € to robotic prostate surgery compared with traditional large-incision prostate removal, including fewer operative complications.


A Stanford University study in the September issue of Urology found that men who received robotic prostate operations had shorter hospital stays, needed fewer blood transfusions, and had fewer complications and deaths in the 30 days after surgery.


First Surgeon
In Denver, Porter Adventist Hospital started talking about Kortz €™s prowess on the robot as early as October 2009, in a press statement saying he was €œthe first surgeon in the Rocky Mountain region € to remove the parathyroid gland with the robot.


A summa-cum-laude graduate of Dartmouth College, Kortz started performing robotic operations in 2005 and by 2012 had done 350 to 400 operations on the robot, according to a court deposition.


In one incident on May 21, 2010, Kortz pierced the aorta of 22-year-old Shanti Lechuga while making an initial incision at the beginning of a planned robotic kidney removal for a donation, necessitating an immediate operation to fix the problem, according to a malpractice lawsuit against Kortz.


A sponge was left inside her body that had to be removed during a second surgery, and she suffered a nerve injury. The litigation was resolved last month, court documents show.


Privileges Suspended
Kortz €™s robotic operating room privileges were suspended at Porter Adventist around August 2010. He got them back early in 2011, he said in the 2012 deposition in the Lechuga case, filed as an exhibit to a defense document.


A few months later, Kortz and several other surgeons got together with the hospital to create thePorter Robotics Institute, described in a website as €œone off the first robotic surgery programs in the Denver area. €


The expansion of Porter Adventist €™s robotic program added nurses dedicated to robotic operations, said Tim Shonsey, a hospital spokesman. While Kortz is on the medical staff at the hospital, he is not an employee, Shonsey said.


In forming the institute, the hospital and Kortz and other doctors signed €œa joint marketing agreement € agreeing to split costs of promoting the institute, Kortz said in the deposition. €œIt €™s a contract that allows them and us to do joint marketing. €


Local TV
Kortz and the hospital let a local television station film a segment about new institute. The robot is €œdecreasing the trauma even further to the patient, € Kortz said in a web article dated May 2011 accompanying the video on http://www.thedenverchannel.com.


Two months later, another patient of Kortz €™s died after his condition worsened following a robotic operation and then a second non-robotic operation that also didn €™t solve the problem, according to a wrongful death lawsuit by his widow.


Kortz €œstrongly denies € unprofessional conduct and his complication rate €œis not out of line with those of other experienced general surgeons, € said Lisanne Leasure, a lawyer for Kortz, in an e-mail. €œTo suggest or imply that it was somehow improper for Dr. Kortz to speak publicly about the proven benefits of robotic surgery even though a very small number of his patients had experienced complications is irresponsible and false. €


The medical board complaint against Kortz is scheduled to be heard in February.


As for Porter Adventist, €œour marketing efforts are never meant to interfere with this physician-patient relationship or to supersede a physician €™s clinical judgment, € said Drake, the hospital €™s chief medical officer, in his statement.
 
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Coopman

Valued member
Topcat

I sure as hell would not want one of those Robotic Fue devices operating on my head. But the introduction of these robotic devices will lead to even more non reputable FUE clinics being opened worldwide.

I live in the UK and if you do a google search on "cheap hair transplant fue uk" you get many sites trying to tempt you to go to Hungary for a FUE procedure at £1- £2 per graft by a Surgeon whom has years of experience of FUE procedures in Canada and USA.

If these robotic devices take hold, i can see it now. It wont be Hungary, it will be Senegal and Nigeria trying to tempt you for less than £1 per graft.

I watched a film recently called "Love and other Drugs" starring Jake Gyllenhaal and Anne Hathaway. Watch it if you have the opportunity its a great film. Bit of a tear jerker so much sure you have a few tissues for the Girlfriend. Jake Gyllenhaal plays a Salesman for Pfizer(manufacturers of Viagra) and it shows you all the tricks of the trade, that he and other competitors undertook to get their drugs into Doctors surgeries for prescriptions. Some Doctors got very,very rich in the process.

Your above post Topcat reminded me of this film. Your quote "what was interesting and uncovered was that the sales people were playing one hospital off on another to get their equipment in and boost the numbers".
 
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topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Coopman thanks for the movie recommendation, sounds like my kind of movie and I will definitely check it out.

I also agree with you the robot mfg will now use those same initial clinics to boost sales regardless of the outcome for the patient. The type of movie you just suggested is a good idea for others to watch along with books on the same subject and please include some marketing books.

Here is an appropriate excerpt from the book €œPeople of The Lie €¦..The Hope For Healing Human Evil €

Our capacity to choose changes constantly with our practice of life. The longer we continue to make the wrong decisions, the more our heart hardens, the more we make the right decision, the more our heart softens-or better perhaps, comes alive.

Each step in life which increases my self confidence, my integrity, my courage, my conviction also increases my capacity to choose the desirable alternative, until eventually it becomes more difficult for me to choose the undesirable rather than the desirable action. On the other hand, each set of surrender and cowardice weakens me, opens the path for more acts of surrender, and eventually freedom is lost. Between the extreme when I can no longer do a wrong act and the extreme when I have lost my freedom to right action, there are innumerable degrees of freedom of choice. In the practice of life the degree of freedom of choice is different at any given moment. If the degree of freedom to choose the good is great, it needs less effort to choose the good. If it is small, it takes a great effort, help from others, and favorable circumstances.

More people fail in the art of living not because they are inherently bad or so without will that they cannot lead a better life, they fail because they do not wake up and see when they stand at a fork in the road and have to decide. They are not aware when life asks them a question, and when they still have alternative answers. Then with each step along the wrong road it becomes increasingly difficult for them to admit they are on the wrong road, often only because they have to admit they must go back to the first wrong turn, and must accept the fact that they have wasted energy and time.
 
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close

Member
have you seen this: http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/board_entry-id-124213-page-0-category-2-order-last_answer-descasc-DESC.html
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Yes thanks Close I didn't want to post links but that dropped my jaw.
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
I don't think you will ever get a chance to see that donor area 12 months from now...........it will simply be disappear..............next

I made this post on 2/2012 on another forum. So whatever happened to that Adamo patient that got the robot...............where is the update..............disappeared and everyone here has mostly forgotten. This is why it is so important to spend time on the forums and take both mental and written notes.............after time a pattern starts to emerge.

2/2012 post regarding das robot

Matt if donor areas are devastated by this robot will we ever see pictures posted. Judging by recent patient threads the patients too often seem to just disappear and the clinics offers no comment. One can then no longer trust the clinic when this happens. Much better to be open and honest so that we all can make better decisions I €™m sure you would agree
 
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topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
You got to love the pinpoint accuracy. In my opinion the back of this guy's head is going to be balding. Not only were too many grafts extracted from a fairly tight pattern but I can only imagine how many surrounded grafts got transected along the way.

Guess what the guy selling this machine he is not your friend. You were used in my opinion and now they will try to corner the market if they can and you will be out of business. Exchanging actual skill for some trinkets is a bad deal.
 
janna

janna

Moderator
Coopman wrote:
I live in the UK and if you do a google search on "cheap hair transplant fue uk" you get many sites trying to tempt you to go to Hungary for a FUE procedure at £1- £2 per graft by a Surgeon whom has years of experience of FUE procedures in Canada and USA.

If these robotic devices take hold, i can see it now. It wont be Hungary, it will be Senegal and Nigeria trying to tempt you for less than £1 per graft.
I don't think you have to worry about any old clinic opening up with these robotic devices anytime soon. The cost is way too expensive for clinics in third world countries to afford them. Plus the Restoration Robotics would have to have a team for training and service the robotic system long after it's been purchased.

It's much more cost effedtive for clinics to buy a $7 manual punch and extract it manually, which is what many are doing now.

I'm not saying the more you pay for a device the better quality. Just sayin it's not likely any clinics who buy the robot will charge a £1 per graft. They'd lose money if they did.

 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Most equipment in many industries is often purchased by investors depending on the return. The robot will make the market even more global as you can find Eastern European countries where doctors will work for a pittance. They don €™t buy the equipment and just work as employees. It will all eventually become a nightmare in my opinion.

Manufacturers of equipment work in a Global market.

A perfect example would be infrastructure in a developing country. It's owned by investors as the country is too poor to raise the necessary funds.
 
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topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
At this point it's probably just best to see what happens. One must admit it is interesting to watch as they have $60M minimum invested already probably more. These guys are all investors and they are looking to make some very big money................will they..........who knows. They like to compare it to the Lasik market so I guess it is possible.
Is it a better procedure, not in my opinion.
I really think the first phase was to get several clinics to adopt the device than use that as a stepping stone to mass market. This guys seem pretty smart.
Is it a superior form of fue............no.............but it doesn't have to be. All needs to do is make money.
Let's come back to this post in another 2 or 3 years.
 
B

Boberto

Valued member
You'd have to pay me to let a robotic machine near my nut. Not enough documented results online for my liking.

The little ive seen online of motorised FUE has not been impressive.
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
For me it doesn €™t matter either as I would never even consider this device. What I find interesting is the marketing aspect and how all these PR pieces can be generated when you have the funding. It helps to shape public opinion and what most would believe. This same approach applies to much of how medicine is promoted so one should always question what they are reading and being told for their own safety and that of their familes.

I think this approach that they are using meaning the shaping of what people believe can work in many areas of medicine. I just do not believe it can work with cosmetic surgery just as I don €™t believe chain clinics where dozens of doctors are employed can work. With cosmetic surgery many patients will over scrutinize the result and there is very little room for error where with other surgeries this doesn €™t happen at least not very often. So then it just becomes a matter of time before it implodes.

I love the way they can take something like the fat robust graft and use it as a selling point. It proves that you can convince anyone that has little experience and/or knowledge that something that could very well be negative is actually positive.

I have a ridge that wraps around the front of my head that is about 1 cm wide. Basically a raised semi circle running the course of my forehead/hairline that is raised several millimeters. In the right light and angle it easily stands out. If you didn €™t know what it was you most likely reaction would be wtf is that €¦ €¦ €¦..if you asked I would have to explain to you about some of the bastards that portray themselves as doctors but this association of doctors and white coats and good people is just manufactured public opinion then tell you some of my story. Those were fat grafts planted into my hairline. I tell them I €™m still trying to figure some of them out, these guys that call themselves doctors.

Just started a new book €œWithout Conscience € The Disturbing World of Psychopaths Among Us €. I will figure it out eventually €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦what makes some of them tick.


Psychopaths have a way of convincing themselves that what they are doing is right.
I'm sure the clinic that showed that mega session robotic result might very well believe it looks great, I mean why would they showcase that................in their minds they did the patient a big favor and he should probably be thankful
 
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Coopman

Valued member
Janna

You mention the cost of Robotic FUE is too expensive for third world countries. My quote about Nigeria and Senegal was largely tongue and cheek.
However once a less developed country gets better air travel links a whole new order of development can occur in that particular country.

Although it would be expensive for a individual to purchase a robotic FUE machine, the developer would certainly aware of this and could allow them to rent the machine, provide the machine free of charge in return to becoming a Director of a newly established Clinic.
This would generate a vast income if introduced worldwide.

I dont want to be too dismissive of robotic FUE, because in 20years time when technology has improved somewhat, it will almost certainly be better than someone operating manually.
However that will be when you have a MK3 version of the Robot, which has been updated/revolutionised to ensure its superiority over its predecessors.
 
janna

janna

Moderator
Coopman wrote:
provide the machine free of charge in return to becoming a Director of a newly established Clinic.
The clinics not only pay for the machine, there's a yearly maintenance fee and a charge per graft everytime the robot is used. I'd be really surprised if they started something like this but I suppose anything is possible.
 
topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
topcat wrote:
Guess what the guy selling this machine he is not your friend. You were used in my opinion and now they will try to corner the market if they can and you will be out of business. Exchanging actual skill for some trinkets is a bad deal.






Recurring income is the ultimate it €™s like having a machine that prints money. I had assumed the recurring income would have been generated by the punches but this per graft idea is even more lucrative. This machine will be absolutely everywhere in the next 5 years and it will generate so much revenue for the mfg that they will completely control the direction of the industry perhaps even be a force to implement regulation which suits them at least that is what they might hoping for as this is just the way of the world.

But honestly I don €™t think it can be done with cosmetic surgery and it will be a complete flop.
 
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topccat29

topccat29

29 year HT veteran
Let €™s say the juice is 10% so the mfg gets kicked back a $1/graft and maybe the clinic does 5000 grafts per day for 52 week. Now let €™s say we get about 5000 of these units into operation. We €™re looking a $6.5B just in yearly revenue. Maybe my projections are inflated €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦ €¦but now we €™re talking some real money.

With that kind of money I would be giving away the units.
 
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